 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Orlando Natty
Date: 2013-05-27 20:55
The screw that holds in the lowest ring on my upper joint keeps backing out. I usually notice it when I go to play a below the staff D as the ring shifts on the posts.
I keep a small screwdriver in my bag to screw it in but it's annoying. I don't want to take it to the repair shop just for this so is there something I can put on the screw to keep it in place? I'm tempted to put a tiny spot of clear nailpolish or glue on it with a toothpick but I don't want to mess up the action.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2013-05-27 21:04
What make of clarinet is it and does this screw have a head on it?
If it does, then you'll probably need to get the screw refitted so it's tight in the pillar and the key barrel countersunk if it keeps backing out - this usually happens if the screw hasn't been properly fitted.
If the screw doesn't have a head, there's nothing to prevent it from backing out unless it has some kind of nylon lock on the thread - either a hole drilled through the thread and a piece of nylon filament fitted in there to hold it in place or a slot miled along the length of the thread and a nylon strip fitted in it for the same purpose. These can wear out and will need replacing.
If it's a headless screw and doesn't have any kind of inbuilt lock, then a drop of clear nail varnish on the thread before screwing it in will serve to lock it in place.
If you can gain access to the screw without the risk of scratching the RH F#/C# touchpiece, then remove and inspect it, then check to see if it will tighten fully without binding the ring keys if it has a head. If it doesn't, then unscrew it and apply a drop of clear nail varnish to it and screw it in until the ring keys bind, then back it off so they move freely again.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: gsurosey
Date: 2013-05-27 21:29
The same thing happens to my Bundy bass clarinet frequently (about once a month). It's the rod screw that's in the bottom of the rings in the right hand (well, where rings would be if it wasn't a plateau instrument). I look for it a lot now, but usually don't know it's coming out until my RH F#/C# gets hung up on it. I do the nail polish trick, but it eventually works itself out again.
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Rachel
Clarinet Stash:
Bb/A: Buffet R13
Eb: Bundy
Bass: Royal Global Max
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Author: Taras12
Date: 2013-05-27 22:01
Nail polish is too soft and the actual vibration will eventually loosen the screw again. There are two solutions.
A small amount of Lock-Tite, about a pinhead's size, placed in the hole where the screw goes should hold the screw in place. Lock-Tite is a flexible compound that never really hardens but will adhere very well.
The other is an old woodworkers trick. Take some very fine, dark wood dust from a sander. Mix it with a dab of modeling glue and airplane model dope (clear). The mix should be the consistency of honey. An extremely small amount placed in the hole should suffice. This is a PERMANENT fix and if you do not seat the ring properly, you cannot remove the screw without actually drilling out the screw. IE. Big repair bill.
Tristan
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2013-05-27 22:18
Chris's suggestions are probably what's needed ultimately, but it all needs to be done in a shop. In my experience (and from I've always been told) the reason pivot screws back out in the first place is that they are binding inside the rod they go into. Assuming that's what's happening to your screw, whatever else you do about locking the thread in place, the inside of the rod and/or the screw may need to be refitted so the rod moves freely around the pivot without binding and tuning it.
If you can get Lock-Tite or nail polish to hold it, it may be effective first-aid until you have additional reasons for taking it to a repairman. Another thing you can try is to remove, clean and re-oil the screw to minimize friction inside the rod.
Karl
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Author: Tony F
Date: 2013-05-27 23:22
Be very careful using Loctite, it comes in various grades. Some will allow dis-assembly and some won't. You need Loctite red, not blue or green.
Tony F.
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Author: rdc
Date: 2013-05-28 00:33
I just looked up Loctite brand thread lockers. Red is permanent, requiring heat of 500 degrees to unfasten. Blue can be unfastened with hand tools and is probably more appropriate for use on a pivot screw. Hope this helps.
R. Chest
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2013-05-28 02:07
We've JUST skirted the issue of........ OILING THE KEYS...... without saying so.
So I'll just ask.
Have you tried oiling the pivot first, BEFORE screwing it back in?
Usually the binding referred to above is the first indication that you need to lubricate the offending key (probably all of them, really). Brannen used to recommend (probably still does) monthly key oiling just to make sure parts aren't wearing down (that includes the screws on your metal ligatures too !!!).
...............Paul Aviles
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2013-05-28 03:13
This ring key is usually held by two pivot screw, one actual pivot screw at the bottom and one rod screw with an end like a pivot screw at the top. If this is the same on your clarinet, which of these keeps backing out (usually it's the latter, the top rod screw).
Almost always screws back out because they are not tight enough. Then using an excellent screwdriver to tighten more solves the problem. If the key gets stuck when the screw is tightened that should be fixed.
The way to repair depends on which screw it is and what the type of screw it is.
>> You need Loctite red, not blue or green. <<
No! Don't use red Loctite on any screw on a clarinet! For clarinets, it's best to use PURPLE Loctite 222.
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Author: Tony F
Date: 2013-05-28 04:14
See my previous post about Loctite. R. Chest (RDC) is quite right, blue Loctite is the one you want. Sorry about any confusion, had my brain in neutral.
Tony F.
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Author: Steve L
Date: 2013-05-28 11:21
To add further to the confusion I've got a red Loctite bottle with 222 on it. I'd say forget the colour and go with the number.
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2013-05-28 12:58
>> See my previous post about Loctite. R. Chest (RDC) is quite right, blue Loctite is the one you want. <<
I disagree. Blue is stronger than purple. I'd consider the blue Loctite for bigger screws such as sax adjusting screws, but IMO it's much better to use the purple (222) Loctite especially for smaller clarinet adjusting or pivot screws. I've tried both blue and the purple. If you can only find the blue Loctite that is ok but if you can get both, I'd use the purple.
>> To add further to the confusion I've got a red Loctite bottle with 222 on it. <<
The colour (at least what I mentioned) refers to the actual colour of the Loctite, not the colour of the bottle. Loctite 222 is purple but usually comes in a red bottle. Going by the number is good.
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Author: Jack Kissinger
Date: 2013-05-28 13:24
I think you should just buy a new clarinet. ![[rotate]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/smiley25.gif)
But seriously.... Do you already have some clear nail polish lying around the house. If you do, why not try it first. Clarinetists have been using it for years and you could try it today. Maybe it will work, maybe it won't, If it does... problem solved. If it doesn't, no real harm done (unless the screw comes out and you lose it ![[frown]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/smilie2.gif) or you screw up (pun intended) a solo).
If nail polish, doesn't work, then you might try Loctite. Maybe it will work, maybe it won't, If it does... problem solved. If it doesn't, no real harm done (as long as you use the right Loctite and don't lose the screw). If Loctite doesn't work, you can take your clarinet to a repair tech... or you can try my original solution.)
Oh, and regularly oiling all your keys is always a good idea, IMO.
Best regards,
jnk
Post Edited (2013-05-28 14:50)
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2013-05-28 14:37
A very simple solution is holding an end of (sewing) thread into the hole while fitting the screw (no so much that it protrudes on other end). If the screw starts binding, find thinner thread. Cut excess, done.
--
Ben
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Author: pewd
Date: 2013-05-28 15:25
Nail polish works fine. Use colored polish, not clear, so it will be obvious there is something on there if you need to remove the screw.
- Paul Dods
Dallas, Texas
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Author: gsurosey
Date: 2013-05-30 15:43
Why would oiling prevent screws from backing out? (yes, this is a serious question)? I'm not even close to being mechanically inclined, but it seems counter-intuitive to me that oiling would help something not move. I'm missing something and/or not totally understanding it.
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Rachel
Clarinet Stash:
Bb/A: Buffet R13
Eb: Bundy
Bass: Royal Global Max
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2013-05-30 16:53
One of the main reasons screws back out is that they are binding inside the key sleeve. When the key moves, the sleeve rotates. Each time it rotates counterclockwise, it backs the screw out a little. As the sleeve rotates the other way it may partially re-tighten the screw - turn it back clockwise - but not all the way or very securely, so the cumulative effect is that the screw gradually backs out farther and farther.
One of the earlier responders noted that the best cure for loosening screws is to tighten them securely to begin with. If doing this causes the key to bind, then the assembly should be adjusted by a repair person. Backing screws off deliberately to free a sticking key is a first-aid maneuver, not a final cure. The same is true for using lock-tite, nail polish or things stuck in the thread to tighten the fit. A binding key, like a screw that comes out periodically, may not be enough to justify a trip to a shop if it's a long distance away, but it should be added to a ToDo list for the next time the clarinet does go to the shop.
Karl
Post Edited (2013-05-30 16:54)
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Author: Jack Kissinger
Date: 2013-05-30 18:17
Rachel,
In the case of your rod that keeps unscrewing itself, try removing the rod entirely, then clean any gunk/crud that has accumulated on the rod and also clean out the inside of the tube(s) the rod runs through. You might be able to push a tiny piece of cotton soaked in key oil through with a straightened paperclip. When you reassemble the mechanism put some oil on the rod. Oiling the rod's threads help to keep it from binding when you want to take it out sometime in the future but, as you note, will do nothing to keep it from backing itself out. Oiling the rod, on the other hand, reduces friction between the rod and its tube. If the tube rotates freely around the rod without "catching," it won't unscrew the rod. If the tube is catching on the rod because one or the other is bent, however, oiling probably won't help much.
Best regards,
jnk
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2013-06-08 15:11
If there is enough friction between the rod and a pivot tube to make a well-tightened rod un-tighten, then it will need a lot more than oil to deal with the issue. The tube must be binding on the rod.
Non-gummy pivots should function with almost total freedom even if no lubrication is present.
Tars12 mwrote "The other is an old woodworkers trick. Take some very fine, dark wood dust from a sander. Mix it with a dab of modeling glue and airplane model dope (clear). The mix should be the consistency of honey. An extremely small amount placed in the hole should suffice. This is a PERMANENT fix and if you do not seat the ring properly, you cannot remove the screw without actually drilling out the screw. IE. Big repair bill."
I totally disagree. Some heat will soften the grip of this and most other adhesives.
But I certainly would not use any adhesive, and would not use anything like nail polish that needs air drying. That can take a long time in such an enclosed space, and when it does so, it shrinks.
By contrast, Loctite 222 (i.e. purple fluid in a red bottle) sets in the absence of air in a few minutes, to a soft, plastic-like consistency that completely fills the gaps between threads. It allows easy removal, allows a fair bit of adjustment without getting loose, and seals out moisture, preventing rust. What more could you ask for.
But for headed screws on almost all models of instrument, properly fitted screws should just screw home tight and never come loose, and not make the key jam.
Properly fitted pivot rods should never need anything other than good tightening.
For headless pivot screws and adjusting screws... Nothing better than Loctite 222 (or other brand equivalents) Definitely not a bandaid! (It's crazy, scruffy and lazy that more manufacturers do not use the stuff. It's used extensively in all manner of other intricate mechanisms that need adjustment.
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