 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: tylerharris
Date: 2013-04-21 00:01
I play on a Vandoren M13. I have always played on close facing mouthpieces. Besides physically, what is the difference between close and open mouthpieces? How do they play differently?
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Author: Taras12
Date: 2013-04-21 01:00
There are volumes written on mouthpieces. You can start by going to the Van Doren web site which describes their mouthpieces, facings, etc. As a beginner, I'm still figuring this one out.
Open and close refers to the distance between the reed's tip and mouthpiece's tip. The more open the tip the greater the distance between the two. The range can be as small as 0.99 mm to 1.90 mm.
The actual facing, short, medium, long and those in between, (I believe) is the actual length of the opening (window) and table (flat area where the reed lays).
Various combinations determine which strength plays best. Each manufacturer usually recommends the range of reed strength which plays best with the individual model that they make.
I've tried Cheddeville Prime (1.04 mm), VD M30 and VD B45. The B45 is open and for me, difficult to control (with a 3.0 strength reed). It's also strange, because somedays, I have great control, focused sound with the Cheddeville and other days, the M30. Some days I sound like a sick goose regardless.
Tristan
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Author: NBeaty
Date: 2013-04-21 01:36
The tip opening does indeed refer to the distance between the tip of the reed and tip opening of the mouthpiece.
The general rule is the more OPEN the tip, the more resistant, since the reed has to vibrate a farther distance. The more CLOSE the tip opening, the easier it is for the reed to vibrate and therefore less resistance.
The facing length is the other variable that everyone should learn about mouthpieces. It does not indicate the WINDOW, but refers to the point where the mouthpiece starts to curve away from the reed. The number is measured in half millimeters (36 = 18mm), measuring the distance from the tip.
The longer the facing, the more reed vibrating more easily, creating less resistance. The shorter the facing, the more resistance since you have less reed vibrating.
Comparing your M13 to something more open like an M30:
M13: tip opening about 1.00mm and facing length of 38
M30: Tip opening of 1.15mm and facing length of 40.
The M13 will be less resistant since 0.15mm difference is a large difference. The M30 compensates for the resistant tip opening by having a longer facing (although it's still more resistant).
Lighter reeds are used for more resistant mouthpieces, so mouthpieces with a large tip opening and\or short facing. Harder reeds for the opposite.
Most Bb clarinet mouthpieces range from 0.95mm-1.25mm tip opening and 30-40 (15mm-20mm) facing length. There are exceptions of course, but this includes most mouthpieces.
These are only TWO of MANY variables that dictate the way any given mouthpiece functions. These are the two that are very important though and should be learned first, since it gets more and more complicated afterwards.
The best way to evaluate these variables is by trying different vandorens. Since you play a 13 series vandoren, try some of the other 13 series in different facings\tip openings. This is about as "apples to apples" as you can get with mouthpieces.
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Author: Taras12
Date: 2013-04-21 02:26
Thanks, NBeaty. I wasn't quite sure about the facing. Diagrams seemed confusing from time to time.
Tristan
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2013-04-21 03:47
NBeaty wrote:
>
> The general rule is the more OPEN the tip, the more resistant,
> since the reed has to vibrate a farther distance. The more
> CLOSE the tip opening, the easier it is for the reed to vibrate
> and therefore less resistance.
>
> The longer the facing, the more reed vibrating more easily,
> creating less resistance. The shorter the facing, the more
> resistance since you have less reed vibrating.
>
It's interesting - this is the way I would have phrased it, too, until recently. But think about how many times players on this board have written that they play open-tipped mouthpieces *because they are more free-blowing.* Never having really spent any time playing anything more open than about a 1.04 mm tip, that always puzzled me.
The truth, I think, is that it isn't the open tip of the mouthpiece that presents the resistance. It may be a matter of semantics, but the problem isn't that the open tip resists anything. It's just that a stiff reed is more difficult to make vibrate efficiently over so wide a space. So, more properly, the *reed's* resistance becomes more difficult to overcome when put on an open-tipped mouthpiece. This might seem like a distinction without a difference, but it accounts for what seems to be the fact that players who simply put softer reeds on their 1.15 mm tipped mouthpieces invariably describe the sensation as one of greater freedom and *less* resistance.
I makes sense if you consider that what the mouthpiece is mainly resisting (or not) is airflow. A smaller opening will allow less air to flow through, at least when the reed is at its most distant point from the tip rail. A smaller pipe *creates* resistance to the flow of water (or another fluid). A thinner wire increases resistance in an electric circuit.
So, what's undeniably true is that a given reed will feel less vibrant the more open the tip is. I'm not sure where to go yet beyond this - I haven't been thinking about it long enough, and maybe the practical effect is too self-evident to be worth making the distinction. I'm interested to know others' reaction.
Karl
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2013-04-21 12:35
Let's just assume that you make the adjustment of reed strength to mouthpiece tip opening. With that I would say that a closer tipped mouthpiece allows you a more stable pitch and a more focused timbre. The larger tip opening would allow greater flexibility of pitch and a greater palette of sounds to chose from.
The negatives of the above two extremes (and I emphasize extremes) is that the small tip opening doesn't allow enough pitch adjustment on the fly when you may need it. The open mouthpiece is also a somewhat of a 'wild beast' that takes a great deal of control just to keep pitch and timbre even.
As for longer lay mouthpieces (longer distance between tip and where the reed actually comes together with the mouthpiece), they require taking more mouthpiece into the mouth. And similar to the open mouthpiece concept, they give you a bit more "flexibility."
..............Paul Aviles
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Author: sonicbang
Date: 2013-04-21 12:59
I used to play on open mouthpieces, but some years ago I strated trying more closed ones. I played everything between 1.27 (B45Lyre) and 1.01 (a refaced oval HS Selmer). Finally I found my comfort zone between 1.07 and 1.03 I never used anything harder than VD Trad. 3.5.
What I have learned is the importance of embochure resistance. Open mouthpieces require greater control (or bite) to focus the sound, regardless reed strength. Closed mouthpieces are very stable, but they have somewhat limited dynamic range. In return, they require less embochure pressure. Everybody should find their own personal compromise.
What is ofter overlooked, is the nature of the facing curve, and the mouthpiece's interior. For eg. I used to play on VD Trad. 3 on my B45Lyre. Now I use the same reeds on my Sumner (refaced by Brad behn 103.5 tip opening, 37 facing length). The amount of resistance decreasing is far less than you would expect when changing between mouthpieces with such different facings.
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Author: NBeaty
Date: 2013-04-22 23:25
Hi Karl,
A mouthpiece design (in a number of ways) can lead to a reed feeling softer or harder.
I don't agree that the resistance in an open tip is a reed problem. The tip being farther of the way from the reed creates resistance. A softer reed will be more flexible and help the reed vibrate that extra distance with greater ease from the players side.
The softer reed on an M30 (1.15) can give the sensation of a freeblowing mouthpiece. Much of this sensation can be attributed to the very long facing. A lot of times people talk about "air resistance" in a mouthpiece in different terms. In my experience and the presentations I've made around the country, I describe this idea a bit differently. Two main things: Air quality and quantity
Air resistance can mean the resistance of the mouthpiece and reed combination is high enough to where the QUANTITY of air necessary for basic functionality is quite high. Many players do this in search of a perceived sound difference (darker...etc.). The reality here (much of the time with just a tip that's too open) is that you're gaining the ability to put a large QUANTITY through the setup, but this is limiting on your ability to articulate easily (with such a mass of air behind it\force).
In this way, an open tip will limit our ability to play with a variety of types of air (large amount, small intensity or small amount with high intensity) and everything in between.
All too often people ask "can you open this one up?". Asking me to open up the tip and get a freer playing mouthpiece. The first thing I usually do is either explain more accurately what they want, or to just close down the tip a little bit and see if it has the result they wanted. In all cases, they end up with a closer tip and have achieved their desired playing experience. When the facing is at a reasonable length, the flexibility to use varying quantities and intensities of air is not inhibited by the closer tip.
In the search for designs that allow a good range of flexibility for quantity\intensity , I have found having a close to very close tip ensures it will respond under most any circumstance. A medium long to long facing will ensure ample flexibility and allow it to accept a large quantity of air. A hard reed is not at all a requirement for this type either, subject worth almost its own thread...
In my experience, being around many clarinet players playing a wide range of setups, the people playing mouthpieces ranging from (roughly) 1.10mm to 1.25mm rely heavily on a constant large quantity of air for the setup to function. In the case of the M30 (one of the most common open mouthpieces), the facing is long enough where people feel they can still play a V12 4 or equivalent. This requires a completely different APPROACH to playing. Since they are still getting A LOT of air going through the mouthpiece, they wouldn't say it's resistant. Most of the time I try these types of setups I have to remind myself "brute force". It just doesn't allow the access to flexibility since so much is fighting the tip.
As far as M30 with reasonable reed (3 to 3.5 v12), the response and clarity is improved, but there ends up being a "doughnut hole" of tone. A big sound is produced, but due to the facing being so long to compensate for the tip opening, you're left with a much less DENSE sound. Density of sound is of equal to more importance than having a "big" sound.
Moving on to what I think turns people off to closer tip mouthpieces with medium to long facings (and thinner tip\side rails, etc).
1) "closer tip, harder reed". This gets translated to mean that you have to play a hard reed on a close tip. Not the case. You have to play a reed that's hard enough to not close off onto the mouthpiece. A reed that has has a reasonable amount of material at the heart accomplishes this.
2) People want to approach every mouthpiece the same way. When coming from something that is very resistant and requires a lot of force (through air, bite, etc) will force a close tip mouthpiece to close off. Or, very often, it will "feel like a pea-shooter".
The amount off air required for basic functionality of a close tip is less (as well as "bite"). This is part of the reason people get turned off to closer tip openings.
A close tip opening can be played with a pretty light reed, but the approach can't be the same as an M30 or other.
It is possible to get a large amount of air through a close tip mouthpiece, but a few things are necessary. Primarily, there need not be much pressure from the jaw\lower lip. A facing that is long enough to get the reed vibrating fully also is necessary.
A "Bite and Blow" approach will always favor a mouthpiece with a more open tip and\or a harder reed. Essentially the player is biting the resistance out, biting a OPEN tip LONG facing into something closer\shorter. That's a lot of work with no real benefit.
This is how it generally works:
To gain response and focus on an open tip, the following compensations are made
The player plays a very light reed (V12 3 ish) and bites in the focus
The player plays a hard reed (V12 4) to gain focus, but bites much more to compensate for the reed and the tip opening.
The player wants a big sound, leading to the previous.
The player knows someone famous who plays very open with a hard reed and doesn't think twice about what it is doing to them and their playing.
What you gain from this is:
Limited flexibility, having to use too much pressure for general playing, leaving no room to adjust as the music demands.
Many times you can hear a "round"ness to the sound, but more often than not there is a dull, hollowness to the sound.
What you gain from a closer tip with relatively light reed (V12 or Blue box 3.5)
Predictable and quick response. A wider array of articulation styles are possible.
Minimal embouchure pressure needed to play, leaving room to adjust more\less.
More focus to the sound that is natural, not needing to "bite in" the focus
A more dense sound that sounds as good up close as it does from far away
Ease of adjustment for tuning
The face, although still a strong embouchure, is saved from the possible injuries that come from playing something too resistant (TMJ, etc).
There are many more reasons on both sides, those are just a few.
Ever thing else the same, a more open tip is more resistant than a closed one. That's physics. The more lighter reed can help a more open tip vibrate and vice versa. Just physics.
The way the reeds work is a function of the mouthpiece.
It is indeed possible to go too close, and the reed will close off, but
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Author: NBeaty
Date: 2013-04-22 23:26
I'm sure I missed something or left myself open to critique since I wrote so much, but questions or clarifications are welcome!
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Author: kjeks
Date: 2013-04-23 00:02
NBeaty: So what do the people playing mouthpieces with open tips that don't bite down on the mouthpiece do to make the setup work? Because I know plenty of people that make open mouthpieces work without an extreme amount of jaw pressure, have plenty of control over their sound, fast articulation, and a dense sound.
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Author: Clarimeister
Date: 2013-04-23 00:53
^Philippe Cuper and Lee Morgan are prime examples of this as well. Both have amazing sounds and both play on B40 (Lyre), more open than M30s. I play an M30 and agree for the most part with NBeaty, but I love my M30. Though I thoroughly enjoyed trying out some Hawkins R models. Might be my next one. Loved the response.
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Author: Buster
Date: 2013-04-23 01:22
Wow Nathan,
You sure can write!
I don't fit into your descriptions at all, but I am sure that you know what you know very intimately.
-Jason
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Author: sfalexi
Date: 2013-04-23 02:22
Quote:
So what do the people playing mouthpieces with open tips that don't bite down on the mouthpiece do to make the setup work? Because I know plenty of people that make open mouthpieces work without an extreme amount of jaw pressure, have plenty of control over their sound, fast articulation, and a dense sound.[\quote]im not nbeaty, and not near as elequant, but I've played open mouthpieces. I remember playing a Dan Johnston mouthpiece that was VERY open compared to what I normally play (I think at the time I was on a gigliotti P with a size five reed so it was a HUGE difference!)
I used a size 2 or 2.5 reed and it played fine.
Right now if I pull my Pete fountain crystal out of the drawer and try to play it with a 3.5, it feels like I'm trying to blow up a raft through a coffee stirrer. Horrible. I CAN make a sound, but it takes immense embouchure pressure and air speed. A lighter reed would work better.
I will say that I'm intrigued by trying a more open mouthpiece. I feel it might afford me more tones. Right now playing a closed mouthpiece, I can only bite so much before it closes off. And if I want a specific sound that only be achieved by biting to convey a certain passage or something (harsh, tinny, whatever you call it), I can only bite so much and achieve so much of that tone. I'm intrigued in getting a slightly lighter reed and trying my Rico reserve x5 and seeing if the slightly more open reserve can work well for me.
Alexi
US Army Japan Band
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Author: NBeaty
Date: 2013-04-23 02:31
I missed another disclaimer! haha.
The OP was asking what the differences were, so I told him. Granted, the explanation was limited to just the facing and tip opening numbers. It would take a lot longer to explain the rest of "what makes a mouthpiece work the way it does".
There are examples of fantastic players playing very well on just about anything you can think of.
kjeks: Most of the time it's a combination of lighter reed and a very focused air stream, and of course excellent voicing. The non-13 series helps as well. I've heard great players play them (listed below), but it doesn't take anything away from design characteristics and their impact on the playing experience. Most people are not consistently aware of how much "bite" they employ, myself included. When you apply pressure, even significant pressure, to an open mouthpiece you're essentially closing the tip. It takes a lot of force to make the reed close off on a really open mouthpiece, so it can be difficult sometimes to tell how much someone is biting, even a pro. It's also important to note there are many other places to add\subtract focus or resistance including barrels, design of the instrument, ligatures to an extent.
I could have listed famous players that use what I philosophically agree with (Sasha Rattle, Simon Rattle's son is a good example). Since the design of our equipment varies and DOES have a significant impact on how it sounds and feels, listing people off that make any particular thing work is not really relevant.
When you have an ear tuned towards equipment, even professional recordings can be annoying to listen to when you can hear the limitations of the equipment preventing their product from being its best. "It sounds fantastic, but I can hear they're playing ******* mouthpiece\reeds that aren't allowing them to have *****" is something that pops into my mind frequently. At the end of the day, the musical product could be better, many times, just through use of products that are not the best.
It's frustrating, many times, having such a strong ear for this kind of thing. Choice of equipment is a big part of our "voice". Our voice should be something unique to us. "You should choose the mouthpiece that sounds the most like you" (one of 100's of mouthpiece one liners).
It reminds me of the old saying "Play the clarinet, don't let the clarinet play you". Some players, from good high schoolers to pros who've been around for a long time, have let the setup play them in the sense that they have come to accept limitations of their setup and just worry about other things.
I've had teachers playing on a variety of mouthpiece, including the M30. The teacher who plays an M30 uses the non-13 series, which helps keep focus. He also uses light reeds and a much more refined voicing than most of us could hope to do.
We work very hard (hopefully) to conquer the technique of the instrument and gain flexibility to meet every demand so that we can make the music real to the audience and also have our own personal artistry let it effect our interpretations. While people are often say "I'm just not an equipment person...", I consider equipment to be at least as important as the other considerations in making the best musical experience possible.
At the end of the day - mouthpiece design is based on physics and geometry. Understanding how it works and finding what's best and allows you to be the best artist you can is important. Discussing the OP question is just about the functionality and implications of a given mouthpiece aspect.
All the best, let me know if any further questions or explanations needed,
Have a good one!
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Author: NBeaty
Date: 2013-04-23 02:40
Alexi
The Rico Reserve mouthpieces feel more open than they are due to resistance of rod rubber material. The X5 feels more like an X8 ish in tip opening. I've played them and my teacher uses one. I've noted that, other than being a bit resistant, it's a very mellow mouthpiece. Part of it involves the tip rail being a bit thick.
I have several Ricos (one original, two that I've refaced). They can be great and definitely play much better with a few minor adjustments. Lee Livengood (the man behind the product) has made many of these slight modifactions (thinning of rails most often) with great success.
The University I attend is highly populated by Rico mouthpieces. Most people sound great on them and they seem to play with more personality (See above post about limitations of mouthpieces). I've especially enjoyed hearing recitals with people using Ricos that I've adjusted, or fully refaced. It is a much clearer, flexible, and resonant sound. Sounds like "Potential released"!
It'd be great to just order a few to try, maybe order two of each X5 and X10. It'd give you a good idea of what they're like compared to the X0.
Please post a thread when you do with the findings you have made!
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Author: Buster
Date: 2013-04-23 03:10
Yes, Nathan knows what he knows quite well......
Playing a 1.12-1.14 at 33-34 measure for some length of time, with a #4 V12, I indeed violate the rules of "ideal-ness" and have JUST discovered that I am in the wrong.
(I should say I play double-lip, have suffered from TMJ disorders that actually improved with my playing, and.....
*gasp*
have a beautiful crystal at 33/33.5- 22-12-6-1.14 that is clearly WRONG.
Yes, yes, yes. I know crystal is too dull for acceptable use, but I've made do... EVEN with that horrid facing.)
I'm happy someone finally told me how off-base I actually am!!!!
Many thanks!
Maybe now I can start to sound like Harold Wright and address the "hollowness" in my tone.
-Jason
Post Edited (2013-04-23 14:07)
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Author: NBeaty
Date: 2013-04-23 03:35
Jason,
Hard to tell how sarcastic you are or are not being.
Nothing wrong with crystal. There are reasons why they aren't popular, but I see no reason to go into that. That facing is both surprisingly balanced and a tip that's more close than most I've seen.
Playing double lip is never a bad idea, even if it's not all the time. A great pedagogical tool.
The information that I give out is not meant to say "you are wrong because of what you play". If you take it that way, that's your own prerogative. Also worth noting is that many people who play very well use a variety of equipment, so no one should be taking offense.
"Yes, Nathan knows what he knows quite well......"
I choose to not take that as a compliment nor as offense. Again, your own prerogative, and I'll leave you to it.
We should all be civil to one another and be appreciative when people take the time to post. I know too many (quite frankly one is too many) professionals who choose not to even check this board anymore due to how they're treated when they come to offer their advice and knowledge to others.
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Author: Buster
Date: 2013-04-23 03:48
I also know many worthwhile professionals that choose not to POST here.
It has nothing to do with how they may be treated.
As for the rest of my text, I haven't the energy.
Just chalk it up to sarcasm and dismiss it....
I'm much more laid back off this BBoard.
Just sayin'
-Jason
Post Edited (2013-04-23 14:33)
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Author: NBeaty
Date: 2013-04-23 04:00
Like I said, I chose not to take offense.
Oops on my spelling.
It's hard to use sarcasm in this context.
If you have a collection of vintage mouthpiece that you don't use/like/want, then sell them, unless you just like collecting.
What would make you not laid back on the bboard if you usually are? Just curious.
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Author: Buster
Date: 2013-04-23 05:26
Is hope's sake not enough?
Post Edited (2013-04-23 09:23)
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Author: NBeaty
Date: 2013-04-23 17:31
It depends on what one hopes for. Connecting sarcasm to hope to X (whatever it is you hope for). Can't connect the dots without knowing what the hope is for and how the sarcasm helps lead to the goal.
Hope for hope's sake isn't necessarily good if the goal isn't positive =)
Your sarcasm in response to my posts in this thread would make more sense if there seemed to be a reason.
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