 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: gigaday
Date: 2012-11-06 06:01
I started with a clarinet ensemble group class last Saturday and the teacher was not happy with me using synthetic reeds - something that I decided to do because I was wasting far to much time on getting cane reeds to work properly for me.
I'm not surprised that he should take a non-progressive view of synthetic reeds but at one point he said I was out of tune and that this is a drawback of synthetic reeds - that their intonation is poor.
So I have been playing slow scales and using an electronic tuner and I do have quite a bit of wandering in my intonation, say 15 cents in either/both directions. I also tried with a cane reed and it did seem less, maybe 10cents.
I know that clarinet intonation in general is a comprise and my instrument is a 50 year old wooden model, so things may have moved on since then.
Any opinions on synthetic reeds and intonation versus just how good the intonation on a instrument should be would be welcomed.
Tony
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Author: Jbosacki
Date: 2012-11-06 07:20
Just as my own personal opinion I have a Legere Bass Clarinet Reed (strength 3) and I actually sorta liked it. I bought it about 2-3 years ago and it still plays great. I use it mostly to practice when the weather is changing and when I'm practicing I don't really notice it too much. But I still definitely prefer a normal "reed." I actually have more problems with the crazy/wild tone I get out of it than intonation itself.
The only time I used it on a concert was a community band a few years ago when we played an outdoor concert and it was pretty cold. It was amusing because I was probably the most in tune of my whole section.
I really don't think there's anything "wrong" or bad with synthetic reeds, as long as you're using one of good quality that is! I just think a lot of people tend to steer away from them just from what they know and their reputation.
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Author: JJAlbrecht
Date: 2012-11-07 15:21
My director says he can tell when I use a synthetic reed, not due to intonation issues, but rather for the overall sound. I went back to cane, using Rico Reserves and Reserve Classics. They seem to be working very well for me. I really loved the durability of hte Legeres and of the FOrestones, but I had to work harder to get the sound I wanted, as well as the proper pitch. The clarinet was in tune with itself, but my pitch tended to be a tad flat with the synthetics, and I had to work to raise it.
I even had Morrie Backun go ovver my instrument, and the tuning issues seem to be more flatness due to the reed than anything else.
Jeff
“Everyone discovers their own way of destroying themselves, and some people choose the clarinet.” Kalman Opperman, 1919-2010
"A drummer is a musician's best friend."
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Author: janlynn
Date: 2012-11-07 15:36
my teacher also does not like me using synthetic in ensemble. she says the sound is different - (not bad) just different - and doesnt blend with the group. My wind symphony director also could tell when i used synthetic.
I however like them ...
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Author: hans
Date: 2012-11-07 16:37
Someone should have told Artie Shaw.... maybe his recording of Stardust (he made it using a plastic reed) would have been much better.
Hans
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2012-11-07 17:45
If you're capable of playing out-of-tune on a cane reed, you should be just as unsuccessful on a synthetic reed.
The contrapositive (?) is also true.
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2012-11-07 18:15
Shaw was playing as a soloist. The teachers who have been mentioned here are talking to a player in an ensemble where blend of sound is more important than the sound character itself. Shaw's sound, on Stardust and his other recordings, is distinctive, however effective and attractive it may be.
Did he play on plastic regularly or was the Stardust session an experiment?
Karl
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Author: MartyMagnini
Date: 2012-11-07 19:06
Sounds like a bunch of hooey to me - at least for most people comfortable with synthetic reeds. There is FAR more difference between my sound and that of the person sitting next to me than there is between me playing a synthetic reed and a cane reed.
I am not saying that synthetic reeds work for everyone on every mouthpiece, but the idea that a director can tell who's playing on synthetic reeds seem ludicrous - at least if the reed is the right strength, etc. Ask them to comment on Richard Hawkins' sound, or any number of other top notch players who regularly use synthetic reeds. I'm guessing your director would let those people play in their groups.............
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2012-11-07 19:39
There is never a lack of hooey on this BB, our fine and rational Moderators notwithstanding......
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Author: William
Date: 2012-11-07 20:16
You should be able to play as well in tune with a synthetic reed as with a cane. It's your ear that controls the intonation of your instrument, not the reed. I play synthetic reeds on all of my clarinets and saxophones and no one has ever complained about me being out of tune or not blending with the ensemble. And I play in some very good orchestras and bands.
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2012-11-07 20:48
It may be worth repeating that there is for many players who switch to synthetic reeds an adjustment period - they do play with a different feel. I think most of the advocates of synthetic reeds I've read here say when you first make the switch you have to learn to adjust to the differences. William, you may have more to say about this. So, it's possible that Tony hasn't had enough time to make the adjustment.
Also, changing to synthetics because they are more stable, predictable and long-lasting than cane is one thing. Changing because you're "wasting far to much time on getting cane reeds to work properly" may indicate more basic playing problems - conceptual or technical - that may not be solved by using synthetics.
Karl
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Author: MarlboroughMan
Date: 2012-11-07 20:55
"Did he play on plastic regularly or was the Stardust session an experiment?"
Very tough to say with Shaw. There are conflicting stories about his equipment out there (some of them on this BBoard). He did mention the plastic reed and Stardust to Vladimir Simosko--Simosko's book is arguably the most thorough and scholarly account of Shaw and his music to date.
Sometimes Shaw would downplay the importance of equipment, saying it was more in the head than the horn, other times he would admit that certain instruments didn't do the job for him---the Conn horn which was designed specifically for him, for example, he said worked well in a practice studio, but poorly on the bandstand.
Personally (and this is just the opinion of a guy who's been somewhat obsessed with Shaw's playing for decades--nothing more), I would believe he used the plastic reed pretty regularly, and I don't doubt that it was used on a the Stardust session. I also believe his story that he used Selmers with his big band, but played Buffet with his Gramercy 5.
My reason: I could never get as close to his sound as I wanted to until I first played a Legere--then it became much easier. Legeres are almost certainly quite a bit different from the Enduro reeds Shaw must have played, but it was enough to convince me that Shaw used them.
Eric
******************************
The Jazz Clarinet
http://thejazzclarinet.blogspot.com/
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Author: gigaday
Date: 2012-11-07 21:57
Many thanks to everyone who has contributed to this thread so far. I feel reassured not only by many of the remarks that have been made confirming that synthetics can play perfectly well in tune but also by the following:-
Something that I didn't mention in my original post is that quite some time ago I shortened my barrel by about 1.5mm to 2mm to compensate for the fact that I noticed that I was playing flat throughout the range with the synthetic reeds I was using. This phenomenon has also been mentioned in the thread by others.
Now, earlier in the session in question, the teacher/maestro/director had us all tune up to his electronic tuner with a middle B (concert A) and got me to pull my barrel out about 1.5mm to 2mm. It was later in the session that he then told me I was flat!! I think he just got it wrong the first time around or maybe I played the note flat that time.
Anyway, at home with my own tuner and my barrel fully on I can play the full range from bottom E to altissimo A in tune according to my tuner and without having to make extreme adjustments to my embouchure - just small ones. It seems to me that I need to do this exercise more so that I can train my ear to hear the notes at the correct pitch and get the intonation right without the tuner.
Some feedback on the comment:
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Changing because you're "wasting far to much time on getting cane reeds to work properly" may indicate more basic playing problems - conceptual or technical - that may not be solved by using synthetics.
**
You're probably right but I get on fine with the synthetics and accept that my sound/tone doesn't match a soloist or principal but it's adequate for what I need playing second in a wind band. I have a better sound than the rest of the seconds and some of the firsts who all play on cane. I feel no urgency to try to troubleshoot anything with the cane as, for me, my overall sound is better with synthetic. Pragmatic if you like ... ;-)
Thanks again. I now feel that all I have to do is train my ear up to play in tune rather than get on the trail of changing reeds, mouthpiece or instrument itself. :-)
Tony
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Author: SchlockRod
Date: 2012-11-08 15:28
It's nice to know I'm not alone in finding that Legeres tend to play flat.
See my separate post: "Legere reeds: Nice. But flat..."
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