 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Dan Shusta
Date: 2012-09-21 18:59
I grew up in a neighborhood where we had a local grocery store just down the block. It was very convenient and as a kid, I used to buy penny candy there.
This “Mom & Pop” grocery store didn’t last too long. The why, which I didn’t understand at the time because I was so young, had to do with a new marketing phenomenon called the “supermarket”.
Today, IMO, we have quite a few what I would call “Mom & Pop” clarinet mouthpiece makers. After reading numerous posts and responses on this BB, it appears that there are many who certainly do enjoy their products.
Now to the heart of my post…There appears to be a new “supermarket” clarinet mouthpiece manufacturer (Rico) who has created and is selling a new mouthpiece at what appears to be a rather phenomenal rate of speed due to the accolades of not only those who have posted on this Board but also from more than just a few well-known professional players listed on their website, all of whom, per Rico in an email to me, are currently using this new mouthpiece as their primary mouthpiece.
What do you think is going to happen to the current “Mom & Pop” clarinet mouthpiece makers? Will they go the way of the small, local grocery stores of the past or will they continue to flourish?
I appreciate all of your responses.
Post Edited (2012-09-21 21:36)
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Author: weberfan
Date: 2012-09-21 19:46
Seems to me that Rico is aiming to compete, primarily, with Vandoren, perhaps the most prominent supermarket for mouthpieces.
Fobes, Grabner, Hawkins, Pyne, Bay and so many other custom makers have flourished despite Vandoren's considerable market presence. I don't foresee a change. In fact, for those with Gear Acquisition Syndrome, Rico merely provides another great opportunity.
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Author: Lorenzo_M
Date: 2012-09-21 20:03
I think if anything, Rico will mean more to Vandoren as a competitor, as opposed to the other guys.
I haven't tried the new Reserve pieces yet...but they look great and have gotten great reviews. Even then, I'm more than happy with what I'm using, and it seems everyone who has heard me on it is ok with my sound as well...
I don't know how many of the small guys depend on their mouthpiece business for primary revenue...but at least with the mouthpieces I do own, it's usually been from a person who makes their primary living playing clarinet and not selling mouthpieces...
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Author: JHowell
Date: 2012-09-21 21:32
I think the mouthpiece makers will have even more to do optimizing the Ricos. Rico has made an EXCELLENT blank but I'm not completely in love with it. I think there's more to be gotten; at least I hope so.
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Author: Dan Shusta
Date: 2012-09-21 21:32
From “New Rico mouthpiece” posting:
“rdc” compared the medium Rico Reserve to Behn’s Zinner and said “Both mouthpieces had similar response and tone quality and worked with the same reed, a Rico Reserve Classic 3.5+. The Reserve mouthpiece had perhaps a little more core in the sound, but this could have been because it has a slightly more resistant facing than the Behn.”
“larryb” compared his Reserve X0 with his Greg Smith 1* and said “this one is a beauty and compares directly to the Smith 1*” and “Maybe better than the Smith, but after 10 years my Smith could probably use some facing touch up and cleaning.”
“arie13” compared his Reserve X5 to his Pyne Bel Canto Medium and said “The tonal qualities were the equal of the bel canto.”
When I began reading comments from the above users comparing their Rico Reserve to professional custom produced Zinners from Brad Behn and Greg Smith along with a comparison to a Pyne Bel Canto, which retails for $395, I began to wonder how the custom makers would fare.
Again, I appreciate your comments.
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Author: Dan Shusta
Date: 2012-09-21 21:57
To JHowell,
Thank you for your comments.
I believe customers are buying the Rico Reserve primarily for the low cost.
Optimization by a custom mouthpiece refacer usually runs around $75 and I'm not sure how many would be willing to pay the extra expense.
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Author: JHowell
Date: 2012-09-21 22:00
Perhaps the Rico Reserve series will reduce the number of Zinner-based mouthpieces sold. But I know a couple of guys who are going to have some work coming from me that they wouldn't have had if the Ricos had not arrived. And maybe there will be a response from Zinner that includes a smaller bore and better pitch. The Rico mp is a good thing.
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Author: FDF
Date: 2012-09-21 22:08
Assuming the judgments of the people evaluating the mouthpiece are honest, I see nothing wrong with someone manufacturing a quality mouthpiece at an affordable price. There will always be a market for “handmade” pieces.
I too miss the corner grocery store just a short walk away, but the variety and quality of the “Supermarket” is superior. As a consumer, that suits me just fine. However, if there was a Mom and Pop grocery within walking distance, I’d go there too.
I think that this is not, "The End."
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Author: Dan Shusta
Date: 2012-09-21 22:34
To FDF: Thanks for your comments.
Yes, the "supermarket" has more variety and better quality. This, I think fits well as an analogy with Rico. You see, although I don't have any proof, I believe "The Reserve" is just the beginning. I would not be surprised if there was a "Kaspar" model in the works, followed by a "jazz" model, etc., etc.
I believe there is far more coming from Rico, however, only time will tell for sure.
I do have a local grocery store about 20 feet from my apartment. Their prices are so high I rarely go there. I'm surprised they are still in business.
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Author: Alexis
Date: 2012-09-21 23:42
There could only be an 'end' if the current style of playing were to last forever.
And I don't think the Rico mouthpieces are that good.
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Author: Dileep Gangolli
Date: 2012-09-22 01:32
Not sure how this will effect the niche custom mpc makers such as those mentioned above. My guess is that it won't.
In any industry, mass production has its place and is important for raising the lowest standards, but the amount of fine tuning that is involved in artist level equipment does not allow for mass production.
So, yes, indeed if I was Vandoren, I would be interested to see what Rico is up to (I'm sure they have someone on it right now as I write).
And while these players will say something out about their "comped" product to create good advertising copy, I doubt when the chips are down, they would trade their custom, high-end investment for a run of the line stock RICO mpc.
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Author: chris moffatt
Date: 2012-09-22 13:03
I'm sure Rico will release more tip openings/facings but as of right now only being available in 1.00, 1.05 & 1.10 means lots of room for customization - especially given how idiosyncratic clarinettists are about mouthpieces. If one were to have such a mpc customized then it becomes no more attractive a proposition than many vintage mpcs already out there.
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Author: Grabnerwg
Date: 2012-09-24 03:03
Just to let you know from my perspective, that sales of customized, hand finished mouthpieces are totally undiminished, as were sales at ClarinetFest.
Like Brad, I welcome Rico to the marketplace. Better mouthpieces means better quality for everyone. It's all about choices and preferences. The more choices we have, the better off everyone is.
Walter Grabner
www.clarinetxpress.com
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2012-09-24 11:24
Hype is hardly unknown in the clarinet world, not to mention outright lying. Stanley Drucker and Daniel Bonade endorsed Leblanc, and an ad ran forever in which Tony Scott allegedly said "I use only Vibrator reeds. They're the best."
Steve Sklar has rearranged his Clarinet Perfection site, so I can't find it, but there's an ad showing all the best players in NYC (including Kal Opperman) with the caption something like "We've tried and like ____ clarinets."
Walter -
Have you tried the new Ricos? What do you think?
Ken Shaw
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Author: Lelia Loban ★2017
Date: 2012-09-24 13:13
IMHO there are major differences between mom-and-pop grocery stores and makers of custom mouthpieces. The biggest difference is the size and scope of the market. Everybody has to eat. Everybody needs toilet paper. Only a small fraction of the population plays the clarinet.
A manufacturer who mass-markets clarinet mouthpieces isn't really mass-marketing at all, on the scale of, say, Del Monte canned vegetables. Rico is a big name among wind musicians, but in the larger picture of world manufacturing, Rico deals with a small, specialized niche whose members communicate with each other one-to-one or in small groups, as we're doing on this bulletin board. IMHO, that metric gives an advantage to the small, custom manufacturer.
Rico might get a few products into a chain like WalMart, where customers who happen to play the clarinet (or have kids who play) go into the store for general shopping and happen to spot the comparatively modest display of clarinet goods in the vast, cluttered spaces -- but those sales can't have a major effect one way or another on the success or failure of the big box chain as a whole. Consequently Rico isn't in a position to corner the market by capitalizing on the chain's aggressive advertising. WalMart uses those ads to push cheap prices on the stuff that gets people into the stores -- the stuff everybody needs -- like the toilet paper.
Meanwhile, small manufacturers of clarinets and mouthpieces are known internationally, unlike the proprietors of old-fashioned corner stores. People in my neighborhood know and love Brown's Hardware, one of the last family businesses in the area. I'll go to Brown's first, before I try Home Depot. Brown's has competetive prices, sells excellent-quality stuff and is within walking distance -- if you live here. But how many people reading this message know that store? None of you, probably -- unless you live in my neighborhood. The store, in a city occupying an area of only about two square miles, thrives because we locals are fanatical fans of Brown's and we tell newcomers about it. There are just enough of us to support a small, traditional store (a store that couldn't accomodate a huge increase in customers anyway), but if a later generation of the family doesn't want to keep on running it, Brown's is a goner, its customers swallowed by the big chains in the U.S.A. selling the same or similar stuff. The vast majority of people, who've never heard of Brown's, won't miss it.
In contrast, everybody reading this bulletin board knows about custom mouthpiece makers such as Walter Grabner, whether we live in the U.S.A., England, Mexico or wherever, because we all read this list where those people are regular contributors and a regular topics, too. We know Walter Grabner is well-respected. People we respect praise his work.
In fact, we know more about him and about the other well-regarded custom makers than we know about the impersonal, comparatively large manufacturers, such as Rico -- and look at the language: We feel good about buying custom products. Rico, instead of having an advantage, has to overcome the disadvantage of an automatic perception that a custom mouthpiece has got to be better than a mass-produced one. If we can afford the custom job, we want one, because even if we haven't tried one yet, we expect it to be good. When we ask about Rico, however, we're asking questions with a lower expectation behind them and an implied negative presumption: We want to know whether the big company gives decent value for the money or whether it churns out cheap junk.
I've experienced niche marketing of this kind myself, by the way: I'm a retired stained glass designer-builder-restorer. I had a tiny Yellow Pages ad but most of my customers came to me by word-of-mouth, one at a time. I had to turn some people away outright rather than let the waiting list bloat to unreasonable size. My husband, a recovering attorney, started a retirement business as a book binder, Aldus Book Repair and Restoration. He hasn't even bothered to set up a website. He does business one customer at a time, mostly through a mom-and-pop used book store, Second Story Books, and he's also got more job offers than he can accept. People who do specialized craft work just don't live in the same business environment as a corner grocery.
Lelia
http://www.scoreexchange.com/profiles/Lelia_Loban
To hear the audio, click on the "Scorch Plug-In" box above the score.
Post Edited (2012-09-24 13:15)
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Author: MarlboroughMan
Date: 2012-09-24 14:18
Artie Shaw once pointed out that the general public (even among musicians) often confused the roles of "composer", "arranger" and "orchestrator". I think a similar situation has been true with the blanket term "Mouthpiece Maker", which has for many years been used by almost anyone from those who buy blanks, reface them and sell them, to those make the entire mouthpiece, including rubber production, from scratch.
Over the past several years, I think we've started to see a shift in the clarinet public's understanding of what constitutes a Mouthpiece Maker.
The question, then, is how Rico's new line will effect not all of them (as though they were one thing, which they aren't), but each individual type of Mouthpiece business.
The Doctor has already done some counter-argument here (as I read it), so maybe that says something. Brad Behn has welcomed the new Ricos, suggesting that more diversity of good mouthpieces benefits everyone (I tend to agree with this). These are gentlemen who are Mouthpiece Makers from the ground up--they make the rubber and fashion the blank--everything. It would stand to reason that they would have the most to lose, if anyone did, and I think by reading their posts we can glean at least a couple of different perspectives. There are others as well, of course, but these makers have commented on the BBoard.
Many of the other independant Mouthpiece sellers out there are not Mouthpiece Makers in the same sense, but finishers (some may do other types of reconstruction of the blank too, of course) working primarily from Zinner blanks. A good mouthpiece customizer will always have work to do, so long as there are good enough players out there who need their equipment tweaked to their special needs. It's a subtle art that requires a pretty specific skill set and talent level.
Yet where there is change, and perhaps redefinition, there is also opportunity. The Ricos (which I haven't played) seem to offer another possibility for many of these refacers to work from. Perhaps they will diversify their lines as well, and offer their own "takes" on both Zinner and Rico "blanks". But a lot of this will depend upon the consistency of the Rico. If they are rock-solid from mouthpiece to mouthpiece, it might leave less room to "custom" adjust the "blank." A lot of what allows for the value of Zinner-refacing has to do with the the differences from blank to blank--the result of any "hand crafted" endeavor.
It's too soon to tell what the result of the new Ricos will be on the overall high-end mouthpiece market. I tend to think this benefits the players more than anyone else, though. Not all eras have featured multiple makers of high quality. That this one does puts us all in a nice situation--for the present.
One thing I'd like to see a bit more of, though, and might throw out there as an idea: a lot of proverbial ink has been spilled for a couple of decades now, with mouthpiece makers scrambling to prove theirs are the true heirs to certain legendary French names, in an attempt to help people sound like certain orchestral players. That's fine, but I look forward to the serious development of various jazz mouthpieces, klezmer mouthpieces, and other styles as well. Imagine if a talented Mouthpiece Maker bothered to put as much effort into recapturing the sound concept of Benny Goodman, Artie Shaw, Edmond Hall, Pete Fountain, and others. There is a potential market out there.
And as I've said before, I hope clarinet makers will once again produce some large bore instruments in the style of the older Selmers (especially) and Leblancs.
Eric
[edited for clarity and to avoid misunderstanding about the value of good mouthpiece customizers]
******************************
The Jazz Clarinet
http://thejazzclarinet.blogspot.com/
Post Edited (2012-09-25 00:17)
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2012-09-24 15:14
I'm not sure I agree with Eric. Almost every maker (including the Kaspars and probably Chedeville) buys blanks, sometimes semi-finished, and alters them as necessary to produce their particular styles.
The only maker I knew well was Kalmen Opperman, who often began with the awful Buffet stock mouthpieces and worked them into the best mouthpieces I've played.
If Rico's new mouthpieces play really well, more power to them, but I think even these will benefit from tweaking by a master maker who sits with you and makes microscopic adjustments to fit your particular anatomy, clarinet and playing style.
Ken Shaw
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Author: MarlboroughMan
Date: 2012-09-24 15:23
Actually, I think we're in agreement, Ken--susbstantial agreement, that is, with an difference of emphasis.
Having said this, one significant difference in today's market is that we have an influx of new mouthpiece makers, who are makers in just about every sense of the word.
If you read my post carefully, though, you'll see that I think these new Rico's have the potential to widen the scope of today's top refacers. Still, new technology is allowing for greater consistency between "blanks"--and a greater diversity of styles to be put out with consistency. I'll be interested to see how it all develops.
Eric
******************************
The Jazz Clarinet
http://thejazzclarinet.blogspot.com/
Post Edited (2012-09-24 15:24)
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Author: Lelia Loban ★2017
Date: 2012-09-24 18:36
>>These are gentlemen who are actual Mouthpiece Makers in the tue sense of the word--they make the rubber and fashion the blank--everything. >>
Do any of our familiar mouthpiece makers today make the rubber from the raw ingredients? Maybe I'm wrong about this, but my impression is that even crafters who make their own blanks buy the rod rubber in solid block form. I certainly wouldn't look down on a crafter for that. Making rod rubber safely from scratch requires specialized equipment for handling toxic chemicals.
It's possible, even likely, that a very small business might stay under the radar of government inspectors looking for safety violations. The environmental standards were written for factory conditions rather than basement workshops in private houses, where crafters rarely own the monitoring devices to make sure of meeting or exceeding those (rather slack) standards. (Background for that opinion: I mentioned above that my husband is a recovering attorney. He worked for 28 years in the Office of General Counsel at the Environmental Protection Agency. Before I opened my glass studio, I worked as an investigative legal researcher specializing in product liability.)
I don't kid myself that all crafters follow the rules or even know the rules. In my glass business, I met people who soldered lead without respirators in closed rooms. Worst case: a woman with her fingers black from handling lead with her bare hands, eating Doritos from an open bag and drinking from a glass of soda she set down right next to her soldering iron. She got pregnant that year, too. I hope nobody making rod rubber at home is quite that stupid, but I hope even more that people do buy their rod rubber in blocks, for the same reason that, in my stained glass business, I never tried to smelt and manufacture my own lead alloy or make paté de verre in arsenic green.
Lelia
http://www.scoreexchange.com/profiles/Lelia_Loban
To hear the audio, click on the "Scorch Plug-In" box above the score.
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Author: Dan Shusta
Date: 2012-09-24 18:46
To all of you who have offered such enlightening responses, my thanks. I think it’s great to read the remarks of people who have different “visions” of the near to distant future. I know that my level of understanding has increased tremendously and hopefully this thread will be beneficial to others who read your responses.
To: Walter Grabner; Thank you for informing us about the “undiminished” sales of custom mouthpieces at the last ClarinetFest and for sharing your wisdom, which appears to coincide with Brad Behn’s, about how more choices of quality mouthpieces benefits everyone.
To: “Ken Shaw”; Thank you for enlightening those of us who may not be fully aware of how “hype” is used in advertising. I wonder, however, about the effects to endorser's reputations. Were they then and are they now still willing to put their reputations “on the line” when they “hype” a certain clarinet, mouthpiece, reed, ligature, etc.? What I think is more revealing is the names of many, well known, prominent players “who are not listed” as endorsing the Rico Reserve. Just a thought…
To: “Lelia Loban”; Thank you for thoughtfully clarifying the “Mom & Pop” analogy that I initially used. Yes, the clarinet mouthpiece certainly is a “niche” product versus something that is either consumed or used by a large segment of the general population.
I agree with your assertion “Rico, instead of having an advantage, has to overcome the disadvantage of an automatic perception that a custom mouthpiece has got to be better than a mass-produced one. If we can afford the custom job, we want one, because even if we haven't tried one yet, we expect it to be good.” Yes, IMHO, this is certainly a huge disadvantage for Rico to overcome. However, I’m beginning to wonder if more advanced technology, which I believe will ultimately be available in the future, will render present day CNC machining processes “obsolete” or “old fashioned” thus possibly producing “virtually perfect” mouthpieces while still using a mass production processing technique. Here, again, I believe only time will tell.
I also agree with your second stated disadvantage for Rico and that is with Rico's past reputation. The Rico Reserve seems to be “erasing” this old image with a newer enhanced perception that seems to be growing fast not so much by what is written on their website as by opinions of non-paid actuals users who have commented on this BB who, IMO, have not received a “comped” mouthpiece. And, as you stated, this BB is read by players who live all over the globe thus dispensing unsolicited reviews instantaneously. It seems that the great majority of the reviews have been extremely positive so far. I’m still waiting for David Blumberg’s review. (Did I miss it?)
To: “MarlboroughMan”; Eric, I think you hit so many “nails” squarely “right on the head” that I cannot think of anything to add. I view your response as extremely well thought out and very comprehensive. Thank you.
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Author: Dan Shusta
Date: 2012-09-24 19:17
Lelia Loban stated, "Do any of our familiar mouthpiece makers today make the rubber from the raw ingredients?"
To my knowledge, only Brad Behn is directly involved in making his own hard rubber rods and is also directly involved with the CNC machining of his clarinet mouthpiece blanks. (Please see http://www.behnmouthpieces.com/rubber/ and http://www.behnmouthpieces.com/manufacturing/)
Dr. L. Omar Henderson also makes his own rubber and blanks and has informed me in a personal email that everything is done in the U.S. (Please see http://www.chedevillemp.com/) However, I have not been able to determine, through the reading of his website, his actual involvement in the rubber production process or in the CNC machining process. Perhaps "The Doctor" will put in a response to this posting and clarify the level of his "actual involvement" in both of these processes.
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Author: Gregory Smith ★2017
Date: 2012-09-24 19:34
The more the merrier. There's a place in the world market for everyone. Business has never been better as clarinettists are naturally curious creatures. I agree with everything my mouthpiece making colleagues have said...with one caveat.
For the record, I do question the implication being put forth that receiving semi-finished blanks from someone like Hans Zinner diminishes the mouthpiece maker and that the final product is any less legitimate than other custom "hand crafted" makers.
I can only speak for myself but to clarify:
I've invested a tremendous amount of time visiting Hans Zinner's workshop in Bavaria on numerous occasions in order for him to expressly make and send me custom mouthpiece blanks made to my own "starting" dimensions both inside and out. They are exclusive to me.
I can then make them play with my own tools both inside and out and then play test them to my own professional standards before they are sent to clients. This last step is by far the most important and is an arduous but delicate task taking no less skill and artistry than any other custom made, "hand crafted" mouthpiece maker.
The blanks I receive do make a sound and respond "in a manner of speaking" but not at any discernible level that I or my clients would be interested in. For that matter I have old "blanks" that play (again in a manner of speaking) from several different sources - but not at the level I'm interested in making available.
Gregory Smith
http://gregory-smith.com
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Author: Dan Shusta
Date: 2012-09-24 20:07
Thanks Gregory for your very informative response. It is much appreciated!
I believe the more "we" know about what "you" and other mouthpiece artisans "actually do", the more we will be able to appreciate and understand all of the efforts, financial investments, and unique talents that are required in order to make very high quality, custom finished mouthpieces.
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Author: MarlboroughMan
Date: 2012-09-24 20:22
As far as I'm concerned, a great mouthpiece is a great mouthpiece: it doesn't really matter how many hands touched it in order to get it that way. The only "legitmate" mouthpiece is one that plays well (who really cares what's stamped on it in the end?)
Having said that, to make one's own rubber, etc, from scratch and do the R&D involved costs money, which becomes a pretty substantial investment for those makers who do everything from the bottom up. When material is being argued as a factor in the sound, that too plays into this particular discussion. That's why the rod rubber proponents (Behn, the new Chedeville, Rico, and even Selmer) seem to me the main players in this--though there will probably be ripples for everyone to consider.
******************************
The Jazz Clarinet
http://thejazzclarinet.blogspot.com/
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Author: The Doctor ★2017
Date: 2012-09-24 20:51
(Disclaimer - I manufacture and sell Chedeville brand mouthpieces, mouthpiece blanks and barrels from my own recreation of Chedeville rubber. Chedeville is a registered name mark and trademark of G-H, llc, a more complete description of Chedeville rubber can be found under the "History" tab on the Chedeville website - www.ChedevilleMP.com I am not a mouthpiece artisan but manufacture mouthpieces of various designs needing only facing by an artisan)
Let me begin by giving my upmost respect for the talents and work of the custom mouthpiece "makers". It is not practical, or economically feasible for most mouthpiece artisans to make their own blanks starting from raw latex through the process of preparing the mixture of latex, sulfur, colorants, molding with extreme heat and pressure or making rod rubber stock in another way. Making "acoustical" rubber also requires specialized rubber formulations and heat tempering steps after vulcanization. So, it depends on your definition of maker but mine is the end product mouthpieces crafted from blanks or rod stock which is manufactured by others. My analogy would be the sculptor who does not make the stone but crafts it into the statue.
The process of CNC machining a mouthpiece or mouthpiece blank is also a step that requires precise measurement, both inside and out, of an existing model mouthpiece or designing a new architecture for a mouthpiece. Most of us need the help of professionals to measure, and by professional engineers to make symmetrical models and then others transcribing the measurements into CNC process programs. It also takes a lot trial and error by accomplished CNC technicians arranging the CNC tool steps and jigs to position the mouthpiece in a stepwise fashion. It is very difficult to produce a playable mouthpiece totally by CNC machining. My hat is off to Rico for their contribution of CNC machined mouthpieces to the community.
The most difficult part of making the final mouthpiece by artisans is adjustment of the multiple and interactive parts of the mouthpiece itself. This is not a mathematical process but an artform. Most will modify these elements in their own ways from the starting material whether it be a particular blank of their own design or the various blanks available from various manufacturers. Each manufacturer of mouthpiece starting materials will have a slightly different rubber formulation and many of us believe that the rubber itself is another interactive part of the finished mouthpiece and the tone produced - some do not!
L. Omar Henderson
www.ChedevilleMP.com
www.DoctorsProd.com
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Author: Dan Shusta
Date: 2012-09-24 21:43
MarlboroughMan stated "As far as I'm concerned, a great mouthpiece is a great mouthpiece: it doesn't really matter how many hands touched it in order to get it that way."
Well, a great mouthpiece, to me, is in "the ears of the beholder" and in the playability as sensed and experienced "by the player". IMO, this is entirely subjective. What plays great for you may or not play great for someone else. This concept has been covered more than a few times on this BB.
MarlboroughMan also stated "who really cares what's stamped on it in the end?"
I believe there are many who are silently disagreeing with you. IMO, each "mouthpiece maker" produces a mouthpiece which has certain quality factors which are more discernible to a professional player or anyone who plays at a much higher level and requires much more out a mouthpiece than a hobbyist or an amateur player would.
I went through the original posting about the Rico Reserve. Only one used the word "great" and he modified his definition by using it in the phrase "a great mass produced mouthpiece". To me, that does not put it on par with "a great custom made mouthpiece." I believe there is a giant chasm between the two.
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Author: Gregory Smith ★2017
Date: 2012-09-24 22:28
"....to make one's own rubber, etc, from scratch and do the R&D involved costs money, which becomes a pretty substantial investment for those makers who do everything from the bottom up."
===============
This assumption implies that those who have invested in the costs of R & D for "ground up" mouthpieces have made more of an investment than those who have chosen other productive ways to invest their time, monies, and expertise to make a first rate mouthpiece.
It's quite an astonishing assumption considering all of the other factors involved in any one individual's decision about what is of intrinsic value to every "custom" mouthpiece maker and their potential clients in the marketplace.
I'm not going to go into the specifics of why the above assumption is wrong, but I can say that based on my own personal experience and knowing that of my "hand made mouthpiece" colleagues, we all have invested our share of blood, sweat, tears, AND $$$.
It would seem counterproductive then to start comparing who's invested more than whom because there's a lot more that goes into making a mouthpiece behind the scenes than anyone could possibly ascertain in that fashion.
Gregory Smith
http://gregory-smith.com
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Author: MarlboroughMan
Date: 2012-09-24 22:44
Dan wrote:
"I believe there are many who are silently disagreeing with you."
Yeah, but there are probably plenty who are silently agreeing with me too. This, likewise, is documented in thread after thread on this BBoard.
But you might not be quite catching my drift, so here's a clarification:
I have plenty of custom, handcrafted mouthpieces in my own collection. Many of them I've played professionally--some for years. Each one of them was worth the price I payed for them at the time--even the "unfinished" Zinner blank I once bought from a custom maker that played better for me than his finished ones (the operative word being, perhaps, "for me"). In fact, that was my best mouthpiece for several years. I certainly don't begrudge anyone making a buck off of their abilities to help the rest of us play better--they ought to be paid for their skill, and the time they've dedicated to their craft.
I've played, extensively, on Zinner-based mouthpieces and Zinner-finished mouthpieces. I love 'em. I've also played on rod rubber pieces. Love them too--for different reasons (and I do tend to think material influences sound).
I think they're all "legitimate" and take true artistry to make--however that is done.
Having said that, there are many pros who play on stock Vandorens, and I've personally gone from playing high-end Zinner based mouthpieces (at times) to relatively inexpensive Selmer C85s (at times). Believe me, the name on the mouthpiece doesn't matter in the end: only how it plays for each player. I don't think that's a controversial statement, when understood in context.
Anyhow, my posts were certainly not meant as a criticism of custom makers, whether they finish blanks or make their own rod rubber. As I wrote in my first post, I think there will always be a need for them, so long as there are high quality players. So the more of them out there, the better.
Eric
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The Jazz Clarinet
http://thejazzclarinet.blogspot.com/
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Author: FDF
Date: 2012-09-24 23:01
The information put forth on this thread about the process of making quality mouthpieces is informative and beyond my total comprehension. I have great respect for all who use their artistry and craftsmanship in such an enterprise.
However, it sees to me, that the thread only emphasizes what an advancement Rico has made in manufacturing their Rico Reserve mouthpiece.
So, perhaps, this is a sunrise, not a sunset.
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Author: MarlboroughMan
Date: 2012-09-24 23:10
"This assumption implies that those who have invested in the costs of R & D for "ground up" mouthpieces have made more of an investment than those who have chosen other productive ways to invest their time, monies, and expertise to make a first rate mouthpiece."
Not really my intent, Greg. Listen, I've followed these mouthpiece arguments for many years, and I've watched prices. Some of the reasoning used by the "bottom up" makers for their prices have been, in fact, the very argument you're saying is so offensive to you (I've read their ad copy over the years and paid attention). These days custom Zinners are really mid-range pricewise, which would seem (and I stress seem) to support that claim, at least circumstantially.
For what it's worth, I think you've shed a lot of light on what goes into a custom collaboration--it really is every bit as much a handcrafted mouthpiece as anyone else's.
Thanks for sharing your approach.
Eric
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The Jazz Clarinet
http://thejazzclarinet.blogspot.com/
Post Edited (2012-09-24 23:26)
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Author: Gregory Smith ★2017
Date: 2012-09-24 23:43
If you really wanted to know what the investment is for each individual maker, you'd have to consider how much the maker passed on to the customer or decided to eat themselves - and that's not going to really happen in the business world so pricing is of little illustrative value.
It is not correct to assume that Zinner based products are therefore "mid-level" in quality, only in pricing - and there have been some fairly higher priced, machine made Zinners out there that were almost double what I believe is a fair price compared to what I have to offer.
I was not specifically addressing the "bottom up" makers directly and am not interested in revisiting that issue. And I am not claiming offense in any way about prices.
What I was addressing was the assumption that these makers had invested more time, money, and expertise in their mouthpieces because they had invested from a different perspective.
There are many factors to consider that go into making mouthpieces.
Who puts a $$ amount on what those techniques are that hold intrinsic value? Amount of study? Amount of experience? Pure ability to execute? How well they are able to respond to their clients? How sensitive they are as players to discern what is possible in the "birth" of any particular mouthpiece? Angie's list? (Kidding).
My point is that the total package of these variables need to be taken into account and there is no way for a non-maker to know the intrinsic value of the way in which we each get to our own finished mouthpiece - except, that is, to play them first.
Gregory Smith
http://gregory-smith.com
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Author: The Doctor ★2017
Date: 2012-09-25 00:52
(Same disclaimer as above)
Possibly the point of the discussion perhaps is that there are different approaches, materials, and procedures of making mouthpieces and there is no one best approach or mouthpiece for all players. If there was one best mouthpiece there would be only one but obviously there are many because there are different needs and desires of various players. The price also does not always affect the usability or desirability for different players.
I think that we all believe that price does not always correlate with quality but sometimes the results from R & D costs, production procedures or years of experience command a higher price for a better product. All mouthpieces are in the end a personal choice and a personal decision for each player and I do not think there is an acknowledged hierarchy in the mouthpiece world but ultimately only the performance ability of the player.
L. Omar Henderson
Post Edited (2012-09-25 00:58)
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Author: Chris Hill
Date: 2012-10-17 05:15
This is not the end of smaller makers' work; the Rico mouthpiece is a good product that has a very different sound and feel than what I make, and Greg has a good product that is different from what Rico and I make, etc.
We all have our niche.
Chris Hill
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