 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Caleb
Date: 2012-09-09 14:59
Is large tip opening mouthpiece which fit medium or soft reed, like B40 or B45, become old fashion?
It seem that most professional players or college students around me use close tip opening mouthpiece and hard reed. I feel little uneasy of this because I am still using a B45 and Vanderon #2 1/2 reeds.
Can anyone who have changed from a large tip opening mouthpiece to a close tip opening tell me why you make your change? What is the advantage of a close tip opening mouthpiece?
Also, is any famous player use large tip opening mouthpiece?
Thanks.
Post Edited (2012-09-09 15:09)
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Author: John Peacock
Date: 2012-09-09 16:31
> It seem that most professional players or college students around me
> use close tip opening mouthpiece and hard reed.
This must be something that depends on environment. In the UK, I see a lot of players coming out of music colleges using the B40 (specifically, in recent years there seems to have been a fashion for the 13-series B40).
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Author: Alexis
Date: 2012-09-09 17:04
I hear of a lot of players using B40 mouthpieces here in the UK, and there are several well-known French players using a similar set-up. I believe Viotto mouthpieces with similar openings are used widely in Holland. Although this seems to be with reeds at least strength 3 or 3.5. For some reason the B40 13 mouthpieces I played worked much better with the 3.5 than the straight B40.
From my experience, the closer mouthpieces I tried allowed for easier control, but lacked the range of colour and dynamic on a more open piece. What has worked better for me are those in the middle (opening 105-115), taking reeds around 3.5.
Post Edited (2012-09-09 17:17)
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2012-09-09 17:23
Ok, the B40 may not necessarily be a classic "open tip" in the sense that it has a very short lay. This (even though you'd want a softer reed for this mouthpiece) still allows for control and focus unlike your more standard "open" tip.
So back to control and focus. I struggle with these concepts . I like the idea of having control over all the tone colors that you can get with more open tips, however that in itself becomes tiring when you are working all the time just to keep a certain color throughout a given moment. The smaller tip opennings may be a little limiting in the overall color department, but they reliably give you the sound you want over the full dynamic range without worrying about the sound getting "wild."
Most symphonic musicians that I know go with more controllable smaller opennings. It is the jazz musicians that preffer the freedom of the larger tip mouthpieces (in general).
....................Paul Aviles
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Author: clancy
Date: 2012-09-09 17:24
Environment is a major factor. I definitely think the open mouthpiece is "in fashion" in many places, however perhaps not in your particular area. It seems to be most popular in Europe, where many players gravitate to something in the realm of a B40 - approx 1.2mm tip and beyond.
Everyone experiences various mouthpieces in different ways, but for me, a closer mouthpiece gives a great ease of response, centre, control and technical finesse, however a more open mouthpiece can allow for more breadth and flexibility of sound, also great dynamic contrast. In the end you will sound like you, best to find a mouthpiece that accommodates your individual voice, while allowing for technical ease and comfort.
Here are some examples of major professionals from various places who play an open facing mouthpiece:
David Shifrin - American Soloist
Martin Frost - Swedish Soloist
Andreas Sunden - Royal Concertgebouw Orchestra
Franklin Cohen - Cleveland Orchestra
Andrew Marriner - London Symphony Orchestra
Richard Hosford - BBC Symphony
Christian Stene - Bergen Philharmonic
Joan Enric Lluna - Palau de les Arts Reina Sofía, Valencia
Hope this helps
Ramon Wodkowski
www.ramonwodkowski.com
www.ramonwodkowski.wordpress.com
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Author: Ed Palanker
Date: 2012-09-09 22:13
You should play what makes you sound and control the best. It doesn't matter what anyone else plays, you're not them. Everyone is different, teeth, jaws, throat, tongue etc. Years ago closed tips where very popular then players began looking for more color in their tone, richer and darker color. Just use what you like and don't worry about what others are using as long as your getting the result you want.
ESP eddiesclarinet.com
Post Edited (2012-09-09 22:14)
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Author: Bob Barnhart ★2017
Date: 2012-09-09 23:47
Years ago I played on an Selmer HS* and have gradually moved to more open facings, mainly for flexibility and volume.
I recently tried a B4013 when I had to perform a work with multi-phonics and found that (for me) a more open facing seemed to facilitate this. I've found that (as Paul notes above) the B4013 and B40Lyre both have great control, but I find that the B4013 works really well in the orchestra where I need a bit more volume/projection and it has great "hold", which keeps the tone very even across dynamics. Currently I'm playing both the B4013 and B40Lyre with #3 reeds (both VD Traditional and Rico Reserve [regular]) and find these play well across a wide variety of music.
While a similar feel/tone/response can be achieved with a closer facing and an appropriate (harder) reed, I find that other mouthpieces that I've played and liked (M30, Greg Smith Personal, Fobes CWF, Kanter AA) don't have quite the flexibility/freedom that I get with the B40.
(I may be mistaken, but from what I can discern, I believe that Ricardo Morales may also be playing a Backun facing that is similar the B40)
The important thing I've learned over the years is to take "fashion" with a grain of salt and (as Ed Palanker notes above) evaluate as many options as you can (in as controlled fashion as you can) to determine what you like and what works best for you under various circumstances.
My rule of thumb is: when it's right, you don't think about it any more!
Bob Barnhart
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2012-09-10 05:44
It varies even a lot more considering that different people use the same mouthpiece with reed strength from #2 to #4, for example.
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Author: Caleb
Date: 2012-09-10 13:44
Thanks for the replies. Thanks clancy, your list is very helpful.
I have try some M13 or M15 with harder reed today and I really agree that the sound of these mouthpiece are more forcus but less some flexibility of colour than B45.
I will keep to use B45 for a long time, I think.
P.S. I just find a photo from interent that Michael Collins also used a B40 13.
Post Edited (2012-09-10 13:58)
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Author: Bob Barnhart ★2017
Date: 2012-09-10 18:08
BTW, I purchased a copy of the Bach "Chromatic Fantasy" (arr. Stanley Hastey) from Van Cott Information Services which comes with a CD performance by Tom Martin of the Boston Symphony.
Tom's performance on this work is outstanding and he has a gorgeous sound that (to me) is like Harold Wright only much bigger and more powerful.
I conducted some internet research to determine his setup and found evidence that suggested that he plays on a ... B45!
If you don't own this work/recording, I highly recommend it!
Bob Barnhart
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Author: Dileep Gangolli
Date: 2012-09-10 18:14
I think that the trend in the US anyway is to play on a much more open facing with a softer reed rather than the old school (Philly esp) of playing on a close facing and hard reed.
I think that the advantages of an open facing outweigh any of the disadvantages.
Close facings work great when you play at Symphony Hall (Boston) or Musikverein (Vienna) and with an orchestra that can actually play a real piano and pianissimo but that rules out 90% of the orchestra out there.
The more open facing allows for a greater dynamic range, flexibility in intonation, and vibrato should one choose to use that in their playing.
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Author: blazian
Date: 2012-09-10 19:00
Reading this discussion is leading me to think that I may need to branch out and try new things. I've been using my Fobes Nova since I "graduated" from my 5RVL. It makes me feel like I've been close-minded.
If one was to try something more open, how would they start? It sounds like I need to work on control before I can properly judge if I like it?
And from the above post, can I assume vibrato can be wider than on my closed mouthpiece? I think I've done vibrato fairly well before on it. I can also do the Rhapsody in Blue gliss just fine one it.
- Martin
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Author: kdk
Date: 2012-09-10 19:17
Without at all meaning to dispute your list (I have no idea what any of those players use), I'd be curious to know where your information came from. Also, what do they (or you, if you decided who to include) consider to be an open tip?
Karl
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Author: cigleris
Date: 2012-09-10 19:22
Karl,
I would imagine that Ramon's info came from the players themselves. I know he's worked with many players here in the UK and abroad including the US. Ramon's work with mouthpieces is excellent, he rescued two of mine.
Peter Cigleris
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Author: clancy
Date: 2012-09-10 20:11
My information came from first hand experience.
I have worked with most all of the players on the list I gave. The only ones I have not worked with in a mpc capacity have been Frank Cohen (my former teacher at CIM) and Andrew Marriner - however I have seen and measured their mouthpieces.
For example, David Shifrin is currently playing on a new mouthpiece model that I designed for him - tip range near to 1.3mm. Also Joan Lluna is using Vandoren B40s that i have refinished, and recently purchased one of my new Riffault models - 1.2+mm tip.
I would consider an open tip anything around 1.2mm tip and above. In some circles that is not considered open, however if you compare it to the wide spectrum of mouthpieces available (1.0mm - 1.3mm), it is in the upper end of things.
Ramon Wodkowski
www.ramonwodkowski.com
www.ramonwodkowski.wordpress.com
Post Edited (2012-09-10 20:32)
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Author: kdk
Date: 2012-09-10 20:29
Thanks. I have to confess I only saw the Clancy at the top of your post and didn't look far enough to see your name at the bottom.
It's interesting to read that you don't consider tips in the 1.1 - 1.2 range to be "open" - I assume you'd consider them medium?
Karl
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Author: Red Chair
Date: 2012-09-10 20:50
Caleb: From your original post and the idea that wider tip mouthpieces are old fashioned, we can only assume you do not enjoy the sound of your home town orchestra. Andy Simon, the last time I heard him about 10 months ago was playing a wide tip and one of the other members there, John Schertle was also playing a B40 when I heard him in the USA in summer '11. Perhaps seeking out these players would help you out.
Ed: I think for the first time ever, I agree with your post 100% and think it fantastic advice.
Regarding Ramon's list I would believe it just like we would the word of other mouthpiece makers. Mouthpieces are his arra of expertise, let's listen.
I also think statements such as P.Aviles are too wide reaching, and only give a small snapshot. Some people chase a sound with lots of colour and dynamic flexibilty that can at times be slghtly less predictable. Others seem to chase a smaller sound with less colour and dynamic. From my experience, the better musicians I have had the pleasure to hear and work with all want option A. I guess it could be equated to an artist working beautifully with 6 colours or an artist working with 200 colours in even more exquisite pieces, although with the occasional missed brush stroke.
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Author: sfalexi
Date: 2012-09-11 02:09
That's a good question.
I will say that from me looking around at various custom mp makers and models available, it sure seems like close, or close-medium tip mouthpieces have the market share. Even a company's "open" model is not really that open.
For me, it's just much easier to play and control a closed mouthpiece. I worked my way there. Vandoren B45, then went through a series of mouthpieces till I got to a Gigliotti P facing (probably the SMALLEST tip opening I've ever played!!!), and have since settled for close tip openings around the size of a Richard Hawkins R or around there.
As for tone colors, I tend to use a close-tip mouthpiece with what's probably a slightly softer reed than "recommended" for it. I got this idea from watching a youtube video of Mark Nuccio and his reed choices/methods. He chooses to use a slightly softer reed simply to make it a little easier. He did admit that it might sound a little "brighter", but it certainly doesn't sound BAD. As a matter of fact, since switching to a softer reed last week, I've gotten a few compliments on my sound and so maybe this brightness is heard by others as "brilliance" in the sound.
The one thing that DOES stink, is that if you want an open mouthpiece, the choices to pick from are fewer than if you wanted a more closed mouthpiece.
But on the bright side, if you want an open mouthpiece, there are fewer choices to pick from! hahaha!
Alexi
US Army Japan Band
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