 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: William
Date: 2012-08-29 15:04
Too bad, but given the current economic climate, musicians may have to tighten their belts along with everyone else. Unfortunately, when the ship is sinking, the arts are traditionally the first to be tossed overboard.
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Author: Ed Palanker
Date: 2012-08-29 21:04
Happening all over the country and been going on for some time now. Don't understand why we keep putting out more and more musicans onto the performance market with less and less jobs. Far to many conservatories and music departments for performance across the USA. It was already nearly impossible to get a good job performing ten years ago, now it's much worse. Double major students, learn another profession or skill, even the very best rarely get a decent paying job these days. Orchestra's are closing down, shortening their seasons and reducing the numbere of players. Wake up students. I have some good articles on my web page and jobs in the USA, check them out.
ESP eddiesclarinet.com
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Author: Dileep Gangolli
Date: 2012-08-29 22:20
I agree with Eddie.
Hard to justify paying what many of these schools charge for a music performance degree when the profession is losing ground and the size of the pie is shrinking.
Given debt loads that need to serviced after graduation and the shortening of seasons that will happen for most orchestras (or drastic reduction of overall pay and benefits), anyone that chooses to pursue a performance degree better come from a family of means or choose a college where the cost makes some sense (like a state university).
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Author: MarlboroughMan
Date: 2012-08-29 23:35
Count me with Ed and Dileep.
Ed is right to say "wake up students." I'd add that schools should be honest about what they're doing. Are students ultimately responsible for their own careers and choices? Yes. Caveat Emptor. But any teacher with a conscience should be honest with their students, and let them know that teaching applied music is really a supplement to their own income, and not usually much of a training ground for future professionals.
Young people should beware of wasting important years. But a real rating system based on actual employment figures in full-time gigs after graduation would be enlightening and helpful to prospective students trying to plan their futures.
Eric
******************************
The Jazz Clarinet
http://thejazzclarinet.blogspot.com/
Post Edited (2012-08-30 03:27)
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Author: Buster
Date: 2012-08-29 23:40
If you don't get any sort of scholarship for a college "ranking" higher than a state university, then perhaps some self-introspection is needed; or not.
I've met far more apt professors at less-lauded universities than what can be found at much more famous schools. Further, I have encountered many musicians occupying "top-tier posts", if we are forced to quantify orchestras, that never set foot in one of the "celebrated conservatory environments" that encompass a few of the schools spread about the country except to chat with the professor residing there.... or to have mouthpiece work done.
And even if someone does merely attend a state school with the lowly desire to stoop to the level of becoming a "band-director", then more power to them... I'd far rather have a passionate musician instructing children than a bitter player putting in their time. Not all performers that enter the field of music aspire to play in the Cleveland, Chicago, Philadelphia, Baltimore or Chicago Symphony.
But, I do say this having attended one of the "top clarinet schools around", with the caveat that everybody should look in the mirror and not deluded themselves as to where their career-trajectory and personal choices truly do lie. Look and see what exists around you. I guess I am a bit of a hypocrite in lieu of all of this blabbering...
---I never wanted a fall-back plan; I always tried to fall forward...
---The orchestral life is not as glorious as most seem to delude themselves that it is; it becomes a job at some point. Yes, albeit, it is a job that forces one to keep pushing themselves forward--- but that can be found in any number of fields. And playing opportunities do amazingly exist outside of the orchestral sphere. (I've personally explored many realms.)
Perhaps those occupying orchestral jobs for 90 years need to look in the mirror... are they not slowly decaying whilst some youngin' is chomping at the bit to find their place?
---There even exist countries outside of the United States of America with opportunities.
-Jason
Post Edited (2012-08-30 19:02)
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Author: MarlboroughMan
Date: 2012-08-30 00:24
"I've met far more apt professors at less-lauded universities than what can be found at much more famous schools. Further, I have encountered many musicians occupying "top-tier posts" [...] that never set foot in one of the "celebrated conservatory environments" that encompass a few of the schools spread about the country..."
Okay....I can't argue with this, 1066. Much of your post rings true to my experience too. No easy answers to the problem, I guess. It's a mess of a business, though, and I'd like to see more honesty about the job numbers, from all music schools.
Eric
******************************
The Jazz Clarinet
http://thejazzclarinet.blogspot.com/
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Author: elmo lewis
Date: 2012-08-30 01:23
While we're at it, let's also eliminate all sports from our universities, since almost none of the student athletes will make it to the NBA, NFL or MLB. And all theater departments since almost none of the students will become Hollywood stars. And the same for dance, creative writing, etc. In fact let's get rid of everything except the business, medical, and dental schools.
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Author: Ed Palanker
Date: 2012-08-30 01:35
I can't speak for anyone else but when I taught at Peabody my first rep class of each and every year I would give a little speech about how difficult it was to get a playing job once they graduate. How hard they have to work and how little oppertunity there was. I'd encourage them to consider service bands once they graduate because for a good clarinet player, that's where most of the jobs are. I would also encourage my students to learn another trade as a minor or at least consider an intertest in something else in the music field. Learn different styles of music, jazz, doubling, klesmer, recording, learn bass and Eb clarinet as well etc. Try to get private teaching experience while a student so perhaps they can make a living or supplement it by setting up a studio, especially if they played sax too. I still felt a bit guilty having so many students I knew would probably never make it, but at least I was honest with them. It's tough out there in the big cold world. The problem is that because so many universities have music departments every studio teacher is out recruting trying to fill their loads, I don't blame them because that's their job but they all need to be honest with the students. I'm sure many are, I hope so.
ESP eddiesclarinet.com
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Author: MarlboroughMan
Date: 2012-08-30 01:36
Athletes are required to major in something other than their sport. I think that's a smart model, actually. Go ahead and have orchestras and music departments, but make sure your students major in something that might serve them professionally.
Don't get me wrong, elmo: I think there is great value in music programs--especially music ed programs. But if students are expected to enter with open eyes, I feel they ought to be given the facts (otherwise the most open eyes will not know what they are seeing).
Eric
******************************
The Jazz Clarinet
http://thejazzclarinet.blogspot.com/
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Author: hartt
Date: 2012-08-30 01:49
Infrequently do I partake in posts of this nature; simply because other musicians are more familiar with this continuing/event of affairs.
However..........a bit of nostalgia........in the mid / late 60's when I was at Hartt and Manhattan SM, one topic often spoken about was the demise of orchestras due to patron support.
Specifically, there was talk of the Met Opera's dwindling attendance and the financial impact.
What was the cause?..........one widely talked about cause was the cost of a night at the opera (no pun intended).
Think of this........in 1968 dollars, a Met patron from say Long Island would :
1... round trip drive into NYC (gas $10)
2. pay $20 for parking + tip (yes, that was NYC)
3. dinner for two at a decent resturant......$75 + tip
4. cost of 2 Opera tickets....$60
A night at the opera cost approximately $180
That mentioned, three aspects of note........ who really was earning that kind of money with family / housing expenses, college tuition, etc.
patrons could buy a casette tape (yes, pre CD era) for $3 and have a perfect performance in the comfort /lisure of their home. People were tightening their belts : gas prices were on the rise and the economy . although still spirling due to the Vietnam War, was begining to slow as evidenced by college grads finding it difficult to secure jobs.
Lastly, in 1968 Stanley Drucker's salary was , as I recall, $8,000.
Of course, this is all relative. As such, what does it cost in recent year dollars ?
Many of the ARTS rely on Corporate donations /sponsorships. As we all realize, Corporations are hurting and have also tightened their money belts.
Kal Opperman, one of my Hartt teachers, also spoke of this scenario impacting his then and continued domain / venue..........Broadway Shows. Again, that was back in the late 60's.
Our Tucson Sym and Tucson Pops have cut their seasons, cut # of pieces played per concert, cut salaries and, cut benefits. Even discounted full time student ticket prices have increased.
The far away (75 miles) town of Sierra Vista has also done the same across the board.
Know that Tucson's four largest ARTS donors are Raytheon, IBM, Coldwell Banker and Long Realty (the two largest realtors in the state of AZ)
dennis
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Author: grenadilla428
Date: 2012-08-30 13:13
Some of the knee-jerk reaction here in Indy includes comparing the orchestra to one of our sports teams. Along the lines of, "when the Pacers are having a tanked season, we don't downgrade them to the D-league," etc.
Someone who knows more about pro sports than I do jump in here: they don't depend on grants or endowments, correct? I understand that most of their income comes from ticket sales, corporate sponsorships, and guest appearances.
What ideas can we take from them and apply to all the music ensembles in the Indy area (which are all struggling). And please, don't suggest cheerleaders.
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Author: Dileep Gangolli
Date: 2012-08-30 13:26
Using sports as an analogy to music is seldom productive in a discussion like this.
And the NCAA operates as a minor league system to the pros in several sports (basketball and football primarily). Most colleges actually make money on their football and basketball programs - through donors - and these funds subsidize all the Title IX sports programs at the university.
Music is not the only profession where there is a disconnect between acceptance rates and job openings. It is happening in the legal industry as well.
And indeed Caveat Emptor is the important issue here.
My point - and Eddie's if I can speak for him - is that most students do not have any sense of reality about job prospects in an industry that is currently in decline.
Also, debt levels of those that need funds (such as student loans) have to be managed properly.
It is a lifelong weight to be carried if you have a six figure debt load and go into a profession that may never pay more than the mid five figures.
Even in bankruptcy, student debt is not forgiven under current tax laws so I think that HS students need to really understand the value proposition of what they are signing up for.
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Author: JayC
Date: 2012-08-30 18:04
Hartt -
What sad news to hear about what's happening in southern AZ. I grew up in Sierra Vista and, while in high school, was co-principle of the Tucson Philharmonia Youth Orchestra (which was closely aligned with the Tucson Symphony) and was the first winner of the Sierra Vista Symphony Young Musicians Concerto Competition.
13 or 14 years ago, I knew beyond the shadow of a doubt that I wanted to play clarinet professionally. By the end of high school, I was was fairly burned out and took some time off. Now I play casually with some local groups in Kansas City and really enjoy the hobby. Kinda happy it worked out the way it did.....
Post Edited (2012-08-30 18:06)
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Author: Jack Kissinger
Date: 2012-08-31 16:56
Dileep wrote:
"My point - and Eddie's if I can speak for him - is that most students do not have any sense of reality about job prospects in an industry that is currently in decline."
I don't know where you get this idea... or (and I think I have said this before) why Eddie thinks other good teachers don't share his insight and integrity.
My wife and I just got back from a month in Italy, participating in a summer music program. The program we were in (as is the case with most programs like it) was a performance program, targeted primarily at college-age musicians and recent grads. In this case, I had a chance to meet around thirty very talented young singers, instrumentalists and one conducting student. They included a recent master's grad from Juilliard and a senior in the undergrad program there, a grad from CIM who starts his master's at the New England Conservatory this fall, students from major and minor state universities and from smaller private liberal arts schools. They came from the north (including Canada), the south, the east, the west and the mid-west.
Curious about what they were being told about careers in music, I went out of my way to ask them about what they planned to do after school and what they thought they would find in terms of employment opportunities.
Every student I talked to had a healthy, crystal clear picture of the music industry, what they would be facing after graduation, and a plan in place to find or create their niche. While I'm sure, in Music as in any other field, there are some students out there who don't have a clue, based on what I have seen, I think they are a small minority. I have to conclude that students are far more savvy and adaptable than some of us give them credit for.
Best regards,
jnk
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Author: ww.player
Date: 2012-08-31 17:16
IMO, we can learn a lot from sports about the demise of symphonic music, but not a lot is positive.
Sports revenue comes from:
1) TV (the great majority),
2) merchandising,
3) corporate sponsorship,
4) ticket sales,
5) miscellaneous (parking, concessions, etc....)
Corporate sponsorship, individual donations, and ticket sales are the major sources of income for symphonies. Unfortunately, businesses would rather advertise in a sports venue than donate to a symphony.
We have become a society that "listens with its eyes and thinks with its emotions." Media has evolved beyond the orchestra as entertainment. Sports offers instant gratification. Symphonies have neither the visual appeal nor the extreme emotions of, say, even a rock concert. In other words, classical music is losing its relevance to our culture. Only a few still want to listen and think about their music.
The only good news is, orchestral music seems like it's always going to be around in the form of movie scores. At least it won't disappear completely.
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Author: andrewcsq
Date: 2012-08-31 23:10
Let's have transfer seasons for professional orchestras, seems to work pretty well for soccer / American football.
24 hours left to the transfer window, will RM be doing a transfer from N orchestra to Y orchestra? Here's our music reporter live with the music director of N orchestra:
"Sir, what are your plans for the next concert season should RM transfer?"
"We think that we have a pretty good string section that we've been developing to fill the gap should he leave"
Drama sells as much as skills do.
EDIT: I guess if I were to make an intellectual point it would be: everything has to change with the times. But there's a fine line between adaptation and debasement. Hopefully orchestras don't go down the "debasement" line.
DISCLAIMER: I'm just a kid compared to most of the posters here. So I'm probably not really entitled to speak on this particular topic.
Post Edited (2012-08-31 23:12)
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Author: Ed Palanker
Date: 2012-09-01 15:58
You can't comprare sports to music. As has already said, colleges demand that a sports player, football, baseball etc. major in another subject. It's also obvious to those students what little chance they have at making it in their sport after college. The other thing is that, in the vast majority of cases in the USA, people are more than willing to pay big bucks to go to a ball game and in many case fill huge stadiums. Concert halls mostly can't fill their halls that have far less seats. Classicial music organizations depend on public donations, sport teams for the most part make big profits. And lastly, when a ball player makes the big league they get big money, many in the multy millions of dollars, the same can't be said for a musician making it in their profession. The starting salary for a NFL player, hundreds of thousands of dollars, a symphony player, a whole lot less in the most major orchestra's, and far far less in the 2nd and 3nd tier orchestras. There's no comparison between sports and the arts in our country, probably not in most other countries either.
ESP eddiesclarinet.com
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Author: Dileep Gangolli
Date: 2012-09-02 04:51
Stop...everyone...please stop....I beg you.
Everything in life evolves.
If symphonic music doesn't survive as in the format and packaging it has been served in for the last forty years then it is an evolution of public tastes.
If you had been in the Roseland Ballroom in the 40's, you would never have thought that Big Bands would ever have died.
If you had been in the court of the Medici's then you would never have thought that a Consort of Viols or Florentine Chamber Opera would have died.
If you had been in the court of Louis XIV, you would never have thought that the Lully's Violins would have died.
So perhaps the decline of symphonic music is a natural evolution that will lead to something else.
Our viewpoint is too myopic to see the big picture in terms of what is happening on a long term basis.
I'm not saying it is right. Just saying that we cannot stop trends that society and the human condition are moving towards.
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Author: DougR
Date: 2012-09-02 13:58
I keep getting brochures and flyers in the mail on behalf of various performing ensembles, and many if not most of the pictured players are in their 20s and 30s. Their voices (as functioning performing musicians) are entirely missing from this discussion, and I wonder what they'd say when asked: Do you think your decision to go into music was a mistake? Would you rather be doing something else now? Are you sorry for all those hours in the practice room, playing for juries, playing concerts for nothing, honing your art so you could scuffle for work while your employed friends took expensive vacations, etc.?
Quite probably many of them would say yes, but many would say no, and many others would say "I don't know yet, because it's too soon to tell if all this was a mistake--but it sure doesn't feel like a waste, because it's what I love."
Students are STUDENTS. They're not supposed to "know" the "realities" (whose reality, by the way?) of the workplace; if they did, they'd opt for the Post Office. (Good luck with THAT these days, by the way.) The job picture, the "life" picture, is considerably more nuanced than discussions like this ever get into, and in trying to "save" prospective music students from having shattered dreams, we may also be trying to "save" them from a bunch of wonderful experiences, which may or may NOT (usually not, perhaps) lead to whatever your or I may think would be a fulfilled life as a performing musician.
I've lived and worked with people in the performing arts, of all ages, over periods of decades, and been one myself, and all I can say is, "there are many paths to Buddha." There are also many impediments to a performing career that have nothing to do with lack of job opportunities (although to be sure that's a constant)--illness, having a kid, lack of push, "needing something steady," some sort of financial catastrophe...and yet it's possible to pursue a dream of performing, decide it's not possible, find something else, and still prosper emotionally. Nurturing a skill, nurturing a career, regardless of whether it "works out" (whatever that means) brings incredible benefits. I'm concerned that discussions like this tend to short-change that reality.
What I think WOULD be a good idea, is for conservatories to teach students a host of "plan B's"--back-pocket skills including marketing, grant-writing, music scoring and composition, possibly web design and graphics, or whatever else a prospective student has an interest or talent in.
Part of the joy of being a student is the hope "MAYBE it'll happen to me...I know what everyone says the odds are, but ...maybe for ME?" That hasn't changed for the last 60 years, even though the job market has. Instead of talking about how to save students from their dreams (which maybe means, "saving" them from LIFE happening to them), we could make sure they have practical ancillary skills and an expansive outlook about life, so that whatever happens to one's "career" (as one conceives it today), one still manages to live fulfilled as a person.
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Author: MarlboroughMan
Date: 2012-09-02 19:31
DougR,
Many of us have spent our entire careers in the arts and we've seen a lot of fallout. No one here, so far as I can tell, is suggesting that a career in the performing arts isn't a good thing, or that young people shouldn't follow their dreams. What I do read here is at least a little collected wisdom, and admittedly some frustration, suggesting that it might be more fair to young people if they knew some additional facts--and that encouraging some sobriety in choosing how to spend their college years can be important. Things aren't getting easier; they're getting harder. This discussion reflects that reality.
For what it's worth, many conservatories require courses in marketing, professional presentation, studio buidling techniques, etc. That is part of a responsible curriculum, in my opinion. It doesn't change the reality, however, that a tremendous number of performance majors will end up jobless in their field after graduation.
By all means let students decide for themselves, and let them chase their dreams...but at least give them the facts, so it can be a real decision.
Eric
******************************
The Jazz Clarinet
http://thejazzclarinet.blogspot.com/
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Author: DougR
Date: 2012-09-03 16:05
Thanks for your reply, Eric. I sometimes think it's a curse to be able to remember when things were so much easier in so many ways--there was always a survival job, there were plenty of performing opportunities, the competition wasn't nearly as stiff--when I was first starting out. Because now, I look around at the uncertain world that young people face, and I think, how on earth would I do it now?? The last thing young people need these days is discouragement, and I'm sometimes sensitive to it even when it isn't there.
So I'm glad to have gotten your perspective. By all means, let's forearm (in the sense of "Forearmed is Forewarned," I forget who said that, possibly it was Walt Kelly) young people with skills and options and awareness of what they'll face. And good luck to them!
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Author: Dileep Gangolli
Date: 2012-09-04 02:31
I like DougR's post. Very good insights.
I do think that there is too much emphasis on going to college for its commercial value rather than what it can really provide - a place for exploration of the unknown and an opportunity to mature with others of equal temperament.
If young people do not strive to enter the profession, then the art form is truly dead.
But they must have their eyes open to realities and trending economic conditions.
DRG
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Author: Brent
Date: 2012-09-04 16:12
Walt Kelly also added: "and four-armed is half an octopus!"
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