 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: kanpol
Date: 2012-08-15 17:11
Hello all,
My son is starting college this month and is majoring in music (clarinet). He started with the tenor sax bout 4 years ago and bout year and a half ago my dad gave him his old student clarinet and he been playing it ever since. For college though his professor requires all students to have a professional clarinet. So I am looking to buy him one. I've been doing a lot of research about different models and from what I've read the buffet r13 is the best. We are going to go to a clarinet music store so he can try out the different r13's to see which one is the best for him, his music teacher is also coming with us to help us out. I was checking out the stores online page and the have an r13 nickle keys made in 1995 for under $1000 but the also have an r13 nickle keys made in 2010 for $2200 and was wondering why such a difference. Are 2010 models better then ones made in 1995. Im pretty sure the store restores the clarinet before they sell it so that shouldn't affect the price. Also I live in southern california (los angeles) if anyone knows of any good stores to check out.
Sorry for the long post and thank you in advance for any help
stuart
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Author: Ed
Date: 2012-08-15 17:46
I am sure there will be a variety of opinions on the subject, but I would just get the instrument that plays the best. I have played good Buffets from any variety of years. A good instrument is a good instrument. I would not get too crazy over it and all of the voodoo and mythology that is often associated with it.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2012-08-15 18:01
While the R13 is the most popular, it isn't the best as that's a matter of opinion - there are other makes that you should also consider who make excellent pro level clarinets:
Leblanc
Selmer
Yamaha
So find somewhere with a large and varied selection, try as many out and then begin to narrow it down to a handful of instruments, then narrow that down to the one which is best for you and not the one that you've been told is the best.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
Post Edited (2012-08-15 18:26)
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Author: kanpol
Date: 2012-08-15 18:16
Thank you both so much for replying so quickly. I really appriciate the advice. The place we are going to has a very large selection of clarinets, I didn't know if I was allowed to mention the name of the store, so I will make sure my son gives all the different makes a try. I already have it in my head that it will probably cost me around $2500 so anything less is great. He has a good mouth piece already the vandoren m30 so at least I dont have to worry bout that.
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Author: pewd
Date: 2012-08-15 22:21
"get the instrument that plays the best"
Yup, precisely.
What brand / model does his college professor recommend?
You son should consult with his professor before buying.
- Paul Dods
Dallas, Texas
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2012-08-15 22:36
I can't honestly see why it should be up to a college professor when it comes to choosing a pro model clarinet as they'd be biased.
While my teacher was a Buffet player and would have preferred me to be playing Buffets, he didn't make an issue of it or if any of his pupils turned up with Leblancs, Selmers or Yamahas which was the case.
It's not a "one clarinet suits all" world - there is the element of choice and it should be up to the player what they like even if it's not what their college professor plays - their college professor isn't the one playing the pupil's clarinet.
I've heard horror stories of pupils in the UK having bought a pro level instrument before attending music college only to find out when they started college the professor refused to teach them until they get rid of it and bought the instrument they specify (and most likely the professor is getting a commission from the shop he tells them to go and buy one from) - not just the make, but the particular model.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: bethmhil
Date: 2012-08-16 00:11
Chris, I agree that the clarinet professor should not have a specific clarinet that he requires everyone in his or her studio to have. That would be silly! Different clarinets work well for different people.
BUT, I do think the clarinet professor (or teacher) should share much insight into what works and what doesn't. Not all professional clarinets are equal, and not everyone understands this when choosing the best clarinet for themselves. Unfortunately, one person in my studio went and got herself a Leblanc Concerto with a backun bell and barrel for a good deal her senior year in high school. She's a wonderful musician, but the clarinet (even with original barrel & bell) plays unbelievably out of tune and doesn't work well for her. Now, she's having to consider getting an entirely new clarinet.
BMH
Illinois State University, BME and BM Performance
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Author: Clarineteer
Date: 2012-08-16 00:30
I have tried hundreds of clarinets of all brands and there is something about the outstanding tone of a Buffet R13 that can not be duplicated in other brands.
Post Edited (2012-08-16 04:40)
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Author: Buster
Date: 2012-08-16 01:43
Clarineteer wrote:
> I have tried hundreds of clarinets of all brands and there is
> something about the tone of a Buffet R13 that can not be
> duplicated in other brands.
And is that a "good thing"?
-Jason
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Author: clarinetguy ★2017
Date: 2012-08-16 01:47
If the less expensive Buffet is in good shape, plays well, and plays in tune, I'd buy it. Here's why. College isn't cheap! My youngest is close to graduation, and when I think about all the money we spent for our three kids in college (none were music majors)--yikes! Still, it was worth it.
Many students start out as music majors, but quite a few decide after a semester or two that they don't like it and change their majors. Playing the clarinet in private lessons and band is only a small part of what a freshman music major has to face. There are also the demands of theory, sight singing, piano classes, etc.
The R13 is a nice instrument, used by many professionals, but as Chris pointed out, there are other good ones as well. Still, the R13 is very popular, and I don't think your son's professor will have a problem with it. After a year or two, if your son sticks with music and finds it no longer works for him, he can sell it and purchase something else.
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Author: Tony F
Date: 2012-08-16 06:41
No question that the R13 is a good instrument, but as to being the best, there are many other factors to consider. Personally, I have very large hands, and for me Buffet clarinets are not really a practical option. The ergonomics of the keywork are just not right for me, and the instrument would require extensive modifications to make it work. While I'm only an amateur player, I like to have the best gear I can get, and I've found that I can get results every bit as good with equipment from other makers.
Tony F.
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Author: ww.player
Date: 2012-08-16 13:25
Kanpol, I agree with what's been said, check with the professor first to see what brands and models he/she recommends. Right or wrong, many players have a brand bias and to study with a teacher like that while playing a different brand is starting off with a disadvantage.
In fact, you can make a case for a school requiring a certain brand and model instrument for everyone. Since each brand has inherent timbre and tuning tendencies, the best chance for a blended and in tune clarinet section in ensembles is for them all to be using the same brand and model horn. I recently saw a professional concert band that had each clarinet player not only using the same brand and model horn but also the same brand and model mouthpiece. It did produce a very tight clarinet section, even if it was a somewhat bland tone.
As to 1995 v. 2010, most players will say the 1995 will have the better quality wood. As long as the action is tight, the pads are good, and the bore hasn't warped through the years, I would go with it. In fact, it's so much cheaper that you could buy it and send it to a world class tech to have it overhauled and voiced. The result should be an instrument that no "off the shelf" Buffet would match.
The problem would be turn around time at this point. Your son probably wouldn't have his clarinet for a while since the best are usually booked pretty far in advance.
Post Edited (2012-08-16 13:39)
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Author: DavidBlumberg
Date: 2012-08-16 16:34
Harold Wright was quoted as saying that a Clarinet is only good for about 10 years.
That doesn't mean that "after 10 years it needs to be overhauled, and will be like new", it meant that the clarinet lost "something" that can't be replaced.
It of course is the "blow out" argument, which some, many (?) disagree with.
Dimensions can and do cha be over time. So it may, or may not be as good, better, etc.
Make sure that the older Clarinet's keywork is tight.
http://www.SkypeClarinetLessons.com
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2012-08-16 18:55
I've read that Harold Wright played and practiced 12 hours a day. If you use a clarinet that way, and are as sensitive to small changes as he undoubtedly was, you might need to change every 10 years. My R13s date from the early 1970s and at least to me are the same as they ever were.
Not to mention the fact that I heard Wright play the Brahms Quintet on Ralph McLane's A clarinet, and he sounded amazing. And Guy Chasdash has Marcellus's Bb, which is the best I've ever heard.
Ken Shaw
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Author: kanpol
Date: 2012-08-20 07:11
Thank you for all your input, I appriciate it greatly. I asked my son right now if the professor said anything during tryouts about what make clarinet to get, he said that all the professor told him was to make sure to have a professional clarinet by the time the semester starts. We are going to a store tomorrow in los angeles called RDG Woodwinds. My son used to play in the valley philhormonic orchestra and the clarinet teacher there recommended this store to us, actually he was supposed to meet us there tomorrow and help us pick one out but he is unable to go now, bummer. My son needs it by wedensday so we cant wait for him. My sons going to bring some practice music with him and we will try out all the clarinets till he finds one he likes and sounds the best. hopefully it will be the cheaper priced one, wishfull thinking. I will post back tomorrow with the results. Once again thank you all so much for taking the time to give us your advice and insite.
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Author: Garth Libre
Date: 2012-08-20 14:08
Blow out has to be one of the offensive concepts to a player who has established an intimate relationship with an instrument. Even though I have no scientific proof to disprove it, I ethically oppose it. I rate blowout as in the same category as those who disbelieve that love doesn't grow deeper with time. Other instrumentalists get to honor their past. Violinists worship violins about two centuries old. Sax players want and pay extra for the vintage ones. I don't want to even say what trumpet players would do to just hold Armstrongs horn or Bakers. With complete lack of any evidence I'm going to say that older clarinets have something that can't be reproduced, marriages get better with time, old tube stereo equipment sound sweeter, steel roadbikes are preferable to carbon fiber, and Isenhower and Kennedy vastly surpass what we see today in politics.
Garth, 305-981-4705. garthlibre@yahoo.com
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2012-08-20 14:37
I've never experienced an instrument that's "blown out" - to me, that term suggests the bore has ballooned like an aneurysm which is impossible. I've heard that term banded about far too much and the sad thing is, so many people will believe it if it's from a seemingly authoritative source.
I have experienced clarinets (and other woodwinds) that are so badly neglected or damaged they are beyond salvage, but some do still have potential - some seemingly mistreated clarinets can be transformed into perfectly playable instruments with time, patience and the skill to revive them.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
Post Edited (2012-08-20 17:38)
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2012-08-20 17:41
Dimensions can change on new clarinets just as they can change on old ones - depending on the humidity levels and the density and humidity changs in the actual timber, the bore shape can vary considerably (microscopically speaking) from one instrument to the next depending where in the world they are.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Garth Libre
Date: 2012-08-20 18:07
In other words, if dimensions can change on new clarinets as well as older ones, being "blown out" is a meaningless phrase. "Blown out" seems to suggest things happen over time getting progressively worse. How about occasionally using the term "blown in" indicating progressively getting better or "not yet broken in" indicating immature?
Garth, 305-981-4705. garthlibre@yahoo.com
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Author: kanpol
Date: 2012-08-20 22:38
okay all, we just got back from rdg windwoods and I must say it was a nice experience, the staff was nice and very helpful. My son did bring his tuner(: , they only had 2 used ones, the 1995 one for $995 was already gone. The ones they had were made in 2001 and 1998. The 1998 one sounded better. He then tried some new ones 5 in total.4 of them sounded bout the same as the used one but there was 1 that you can really tell the difference. But price wise were talking 1100 more. Now the lady there was telling us about how the older models can get blown out so in the long run its better to buy new, but she wasn't really pushing the new one on us, so I believe that was her honest opinion. Just like here I have read that it does happen and I have read that it doesn't happen. Anyways though she let us take the used one and the new one home for 5 days to try out and decide which one we want or we can give them both back and not buy any. I really liked that they did that for us, no deposit either. Sometime this week we will have his teacher take a look at them and give us his opinion. Thanks for all the help
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Author: vljenewein
Date: 2012-08-21 01:05
Blowout can happen, but it is a lot more prevalent in neglected wooden instruments. It is reversible somewhat. Larry Naylor has been restoring wooden instruments that were "blown out" for quite some time. Larry Naylor FAQ
Vernon
Jenewein Duduks Manufacturing & Research
www.duduk.us American made Duduks
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Author: ohsuzan
Date: 2012-08-21 01:59
kanpol, it seems important to me that you and your son found "one where you can really tell the difference".
The average R13 is a very good instrument. Some of them, however, are really special, and much nicer than "average". If you have found one of those, grab it!
When I bought mine (in 1995, oddly enough), I was able to try a dozen or more. The one I bought was "the one where you can really tell the difference." I have never been sorry, and others have confirmed for me that it has a special sweetness or depth to its tone.
Glad you found a good one.
Susan
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Author: Tony F
Date: 2012-08-21 02:08
Don't be swayed by the description "Blown Out". It's a term that is thrown about too readily. More often than not, what is actually meant is the result of age, use and neglect rather than the actual deterioration of the instrument through excessive use. All of these things can be remedied by a tech who knows what they're about. I've restored a number of horns that were in a woeful state when I got them, but were probably better than the day they were made when I'd finished with them. That being said, Blow Out can happen. Be guided by the teacher, but in the end, if you like what you hear, go for the horn that sounds best. Try different mouthpieces while you're testing the horns, they can make an amazing difference.
Tony F.
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Author: kanpol
Date: 2012-08-22 23:15
once again thank you for all the information and advice. A little update on whats happening. My son was accepted into cal state northridges music program and will be studying under Julia Heinen. I talked to his music teacher from the orchestra he used to play in and he told me to actually hold off on buying a clarinet until he talks to Julia and ask her if she can go with him to help him pick out an instrument. His main reason was, since my son will be studying under her it is important that she likes the sound of the instrument, also. It wouldn't do any good if we get one and she doesn't like the sound of it.
I am by no way any type of musician and my son has been playing the clarinet for only one and a half years. He played the tenor sax for 4 years and switched to the clarinet. So now I'm worried even though that one clarinet sounded very good to us it might not sound as good to a expert. So thats where were at now. The more I research the more confussing it is,arghhh.
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Author: juliaheinen
Date: 2012-08-23 00:34
Hi
Your son will be studying with me and I am more than happy to help you choose a clarinet!
Dr. Julia Heinen
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Author: juliaheinen
Date: 2012-08-23 00:56
My pleasure! I will answer a couple of the statements that I glanced at above. Thanks to Dave Blumberg for giving my the heads up on the question to begin with. I wasn't on the site.
College professors, or I should say more accurately, professional clarinetists choose clarinets all the time. We know what to look for in an instrument (centered sound, all the overtones present, INTONATION!, what work might be required) and we can do this with a much higher degree of accuracy because of the number of times we do this for our students and ourselves. Also, we spend a lot of time each year trying instruments with our colleagues. So, we just have more clarinets in our hands than the average folk.
A good clarinet is a good clarinet. A great clarinet is a great clarinet and that's what we're looking for. Brands dont' matter, but I can tell from looking at the serial number when it was made and if it actually IS a professional instrument. I also know to check the upper and lower joints for matching serial numbers. if they dont' match it's two halves of different clarinets.
Currently, I'm a Buffet artist, but was a Selmer artist. Students in my studio have instruments of all different makes and models. There is no one instrument that is better suited to every student. i was just at RDG helping one of my students pick an instrument. Something that I do at least once a week.
So, do college teachers (professional clarinetists) know more. Yes. Because we spend so much more time doing it.
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Author: kanpol
Date: 2012-08-23 01:45
Dr. Heinen let me first say hello pleasure to meet you and wow thank you so much for responding. I have a question to ask you, the 2 clarinets that we have at the moment have to go back to rdg windwoods by saturday. 1 is brand new serial#622054 nickle keys$2905 and the other is made in 1998 serial#441907 silver keys $2200. I know this is very short notice and really asking a lot on my part but is there any way you can look at them before we have to decide if we will buy one or take them both back. Or would you rather I just take them both back and wait until you have a chance to help look for one. I am very sorry for asking so much and please forgive me if I am overstepping. Once again thank you so much and I am so pleased and relieved to know that my son has a professor who is willing to take out from their own personal time to help their students. Yes i am brown nosing(: but it is the truth
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Author: juliaheinen
Date: 2012-08-23 01:49
You are not overstepping at all!!! I'm happy to play them and I do this all the time for all of my students. It's not an imposition in the least. I'm at school tomorrow with a slew of meetings but have a bit of time between them. Otherwise, I can try them on Saturday. I could meet you at RDG if you like. If you'd like to do that how about noon at RDG?
What works best for you?
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Author: kanpol
Date: 2012-08-23 02:01
Saturday at noon would be awesome thank you so very much. Anthony is very excited he was so worried about starting school without a professional instrument.
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Author: Clarineteer
Date: 2012-08-23 11:18
Please give us an update and let us know if one of these two instruments were chosen. Thanks for sharing.
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2012-08-23 13:23
I would also like to thank Julia for chiming in (and David for alerting her). IMNSHO this is how communications should go between teacher & student everywhere, though either oftentimes we're not privy to the conversations or the conversation never starts.
Remember, those of you who are students, that a good teacher WANTS you to ask questions; otherwise, the teacher is just going to have to guess and both of you may end up frustrated. And teachers, remember that some of your students are nervous about asking questions 
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Author: kanpol
Date: 2012-08-24 02:44
You are exactly right Mark, it should be my 18 year old about to start college son on this forum, researching and asking questions about clarinets and not me dad doing it. If Dr. Heinen hadn't chimned in on us it would've been me emailing her and not my son. He's a good kid though, just nervous about not asking the right thing. In my defense, we as fathers always want the very best for our kids and if I didn't take the time to do research for him on his first clarinet purchase and he ended up getting burned, I would feel so bad that words cannot even describe it. So knowing his professor will help him pick it out now, phew no more stress.
I will chime in either Saturday or Sunday to let you all know which clarinet they picked out
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Author: juliaheinen
Date: 2012-08-24 02:52
Hi
I (and most professional clarinetists) are very happy to help anybody pick out an instrument. I get phone calls all the time and do this quite a bit.
Yep, let Anthony do the research. It's a good learning experience and something that he'll be doing for his own students soon!
Julia Heinen
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Author: kanpol
Date: 2012-08-26 05:14
Good day all
here's an update on everything. First and foremost, always wanted to say that, I would once again like to thank Dr. Heinen for taking the time out of her busy schedule(school starts on monday)to meet with us at rdg. I know people say that the professor should take the student out and help them find an instrument, well maybe so, but you have to remember that they dont really have to do it and for them to take there own personal time to do it is awesome and very appreciated in my book.
Back to the subject after trying out many clarinets new and used she picked a new r13 as the best sounding one. She even took the time to let me come in the practice room with them(her and my son)and explain to me and show me why she chose that particular one. It was a very nice learning experience for me. So my son now has a beautiful sounding clarinet. Once again thank you so much Dr. Heinen.
p.s.
We all want to best for our kids and pray that they succeed in life and watching my son have no interest in music and then in the 9th grade pick up the tenor sax, then halfway into the 11th grade his grandfather gives him his old clarinet and switches to that and now 1 and a half years later he is about to start college studying under Dr. Heinen. I am so proud of him and what a great feeling it is to be so proud of your kid.
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Author: vljenewein
Date: 2012-08-26 06:15
Excellent! Why did she choose that particular one?
Vernon
Jenewein Duduks Manufacturing & Research
www.duduk.us American made Duduks
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Author: DavidBlumberg
Date: 2012-08-26 08:06
Because new is better, just a hunch.
Elaborating more on the new/used:
A Clarinet that's up for sale is typically there from a few reasons. One of them certainly could be from the owner not liking the scale, resistance, etc.
That of course is a personal choice/feeling, but quality certainly could be a factor in why a Clarinet is on the block.
http://www.SkypeClarinetLessons.com
Post Edited (2012-08-26 12:49)
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Author: juliaheinen
Date: 2012-08-26 14:54
Thank you to Mr. V. for the lovely comments. He's right, clarinet professors don't have to do this kind of thing, but we do and for me it's just the "pay it forward" thing. There's a whole list of things that teachers "don't have to do" like writing letters of recommendation for school applications, jobs, etc (I write about 200 a year), having guest artists on campus, hosting clarinet festivals and helping students solve any number of problems. Also, every so often, I get to meet some wonderful people like Mr. and Mrs. V who are extremely supportive of their son and his pursuit of music. That's not always the case.
Let me dispel one myth that was mentioned above and I should apologize, since I only scanned the thread briefly. There is no financial gain for a teacher to pick out a clarinet at any music store. There is no "kick back" involved. Please don't think any music teacher of any instrument is doing this. It's simply not true. Actually, the mark up on professional instruments at a place like RDG that deals with professionals (and there are a few of these kinds of places around the country) is extremely small. They just don't make enough profit to give any kind of "kick back" and no one would expect it.
How did I choose this clarinet? First, the clarinet must have a centered sound with all the overtones ringing evenly. Next, even in timbre. No notes should "jump out." Listen carefully for the chalumeau low g-sharp to be louder. That shouldn't happen. Intonation of the 12ths should be consistent. Intonation chromatically also. That's it.
It's too easy for a student to react to how the keys feel. Also which one is easier to blow. They may not be set up correctly yet themselves so they can't hear if a clarinet has a "center" to it.
The used one that I tried at RDG was a good clarinet but lacked a center and had only the fundamental and 4th overtone ringing loudest with the 2nd and 5th missing and a week 3rd. Made the instrument sound somewhat "hollow." I am guessing that this person is selling it because they are aspiring to a career as a professional and this instrument, because of it's lack of center, will not carry out into the hall. You have to be able to project your sound and the less center, the less projection. The price difference between that one and a new one was not very significant. It doesn't mean it wasn't a good clarinet for someone. It certainly is. But there are better instruments out there and we found one. Not hard to do at RDG since their stock is large.
I"m happy to try and answer any further questions on this if you have any.
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2012-08-27 04:47
>> There is no financial gain for a teacher to pick out a clarinet at any music store. There is no "kick back" involved. Please don't think any music teacher of any instrument is doing this. It's simply not true. <<
Unfortunately, this generalization is not true. Maybe you don't and maybe teachers and stores you know don't. That's great. Some stores and teachers absolutely do this.
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Author: juliaheinen
Date: 2012-08-27 04:50
Well, I should have qualified my statement to the United States. If a teacher in this country is doing that, it's unethical.
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