 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: stuper1
Date: 2012-06-25 05:29
I'm an adult beginner. I've been playing and taking lessons for about 2 1/2 years, and I've made good progress. I've been playing with the small band at church for about 9 months. I'm the only wind player. The rest of the band is a piano, guitar, bass guitar, and drums.
When I've had time to practice regularly through the week, the playing at church goes fine. We play about 15 minutes of generally upbeat choruses at the beginning of the meetings.
However, sometimes I'm too busy to get much practice time in, and then my embouchure can sometimes give out before the end of our chorus time.
I'm thinking about switching to the saxophone, because I've read that it's not as taxing on the embouchure. I understand that it will set me back say a few months or so, as I learn the saxophone. But I'm thinking it may be better in the long run, as I'm a busy guy with young kids, a busy job, and other interests.
My current clarinet teacher teaches saxophone too. I'm planning to talk to him about this soon, but I thought I'd ask for some input from those on this bboard who play both clarinet and saxophone. Is it true that the saxophone is easier on the mouth? Am I correct in thinking that my mouth won't get so fatigued on the saxophone, even if I haven't had time to practice very much that week?
Thanks in advance for your input.
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Author: Campana
Date: 2012-06-25 07:44
I'm also an adult beginner but not so advanced as you. I was 2 months shy of my 80th birthday when I started last November and as you can imagine a weak embouchure inhibited progress, a cache 22 situation, needed all the practise I could get but embouchure fatigue limited meaningful practice to just over half an hour.
Any way, willing to try anything to hurry things along I bought a Jazzlab mouthpiece silencer. This enables me to do mouthpiece exercises anytime in any room, 5 minutes here, 5 minutes there. It really firms up the embouchure as you strive to play notes other than the natural frequency of the mouthpiece and reed. Within a week I could play 6 different notes. On the clarinet itself I can practise longer and reach a note or two higher.
Whether a younger person would need or benefit from such an aid I don't know but I relate my experience FWIW.
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Author: Tony M
Date: 2012-06-25 11:23
I'll second the use of the Jazzlab silencer. I bought one for clarinet and, although I move in and out of using it, it does help.
I started alto sax recently and find it isn't anything like what I'd heard it would be like. There are many positive things (having to think Bb and Eb transpositions is actually very good, having another timbre to play with is very good, double practice time is not so good - the pleasure's there but things get tight timewise) but embouchure is really interesting.
I don't know if it is habit but I feel much better when I do clarinet practice first and sax second. It's much more comfortable to move from clarinet to alto than the other way around. The other week I was playing with a friend and he asked how something would sound on the clarinet. I put down the alto, picked up the clarinet and nothing. It took a few minutes for my embouchure to sort itself out.
I'm sure this will pass but it is a bit freaky at present. So the upshot of the ramble is that I would go for the sort of embouchure training that you can get on a silencer rather than switch instruments. Get a saxophone by all means but it is a different type of adventure to a clarinet rather than just ease of play.
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Author: BobD
Date: 2012-06-25 11:32
Learning Alto Sax is a good idea. Soprano sax......much tougher.
Bob Draznik
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Author: DrewSorensenMusic
Date: 2012-06-25 11:34
There's many things that can contribute to muscle fatigue when playing. Instrument in poor adjustment, poor instrument tuning, poor tuning from others playing around you, mouthpiece that does not suit your needs, et al...
Really the main question is what instrument do you like the tone of the instrument more, clarinet or saxophone? If you like the tone of the clarinet more than the sax, stick with the clarinet, and invest in some ideas (given below) to assist your playing. If you like the tone of the saxophone, then switch to the saxophone.
To aid clarinet: (Ask your teacher to test your setup and confirm some of the ideas I give you)
1. Change reeds to softer reeds: If your tone is airy and it's hard to get an initial tone from the instrument, try this. If you go too soft, tuning will be affected, and you will play flat in the group, so make sure that it is a reed problem. If you are aren't playing much, I wouldn't go beyond 3.5, depending on the maker.
2. Change mouthpieces: If the tip opening is too wide, it will play loudly and the tone will be airy as well. Do some research and try a different mouthpiece. A lot of people like Vandoren (my personal preference from this brand would be 5RV with Lyre). I personally play Clark Fobes, and their Debut and Nova CF+ facings are honorable.
3. Make sure the instrument is in good repair: As your teacher about this
4. Get a shorter clarinet barrel: If you play flat a lot, and try to lip up, this will help you play in tune with less effort. When I switched to a shorter clarinet barrel, my personal fatigue issues disappeared. This is not for everyone, but it did help me considerably. It is an expensive fix, which is why I list it last.
Saxophone considertion:
If you like the tone of saxophone, by all means switch, but be sure to get a good instrument. Bad instruments are all over and will be very difficult to play and sound good on. Also, you have two main choices of saxophone, Alto or Tenor. I play Alto Sax mainly for my work, but I prefer Tenor Sax if I am the only Saxophonist in the band. I also think Tenor Sax has a more pleasant tone to the ear, and is easier to play. The Alto can sound shrill and unpleasant if even the littlest piece isn't properly chosen for the player. There is much to talk about on the Saxophone issue, but since you haven't chosen that yet, I will not get into it.
Good luck,
Drew S.
http://www.youtube.com/user/DrewSorensenMusic
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Author: Buster Brown
Date: 2012-06-25 11:49
Don't understand the comment about soprano difficulty. I purchased one a couple of years ago. Got tired of not having one for pit work and using the clarinet. But, I find the soprano the easiest of the saxophones (I play tenor, alto and bari also). For me it plays the low notes the easiest of all the saxes. I can play the low Bb softly with nice tone and never a honk. I can't always say that about alto. Of course tenor and bari play down there easily as well.
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Author: stuper1
Date: 2012-06-25 12:48
Thanks for the good input above. However, nobody has really answered my main question. Is the saxophone easier on the mouth than the clarinet? Let's assume I'd take up the tenor saxophone. There is nothing wrong with my current clarinet setup. Everything works great as long as I have some good practice sessions during the week. If I don't have time for much practice, things go downhill quickly.
I'd love to hear from somebody who plays both instruments on whether the saxophone actually is easier in terms of not having to practice as much in order to maintain the necessary embouchure strength. Thanks!
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2012-06-25 13:26
Sax is much easier on the chops than clarinet - it's a more relaxed embouchure and you blow down to pitch on it instead of blowing up to pitch as you do on clarinet.
Even soprano sax is more relaxed than clarinet, but you do need plenty of breath support for the lower register and you still have to blow down to pitch - if you tighten up as you go up the upper register, you'll only end up very sharp, so keep a stable embouchure throughout.
You can take a break from playing sax for a lot longer than clarinet and come back to it with very little trouble. It won't take long to have your chops back on form compared to if you have a break from playing clarinet for the same length of time.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: BobD
Date: 2012-06-25 15:41
"Don't understand the comment about soprano difficulty." What's to understand?
Maybe what you mean is that it isn't difficult for you. It's more difficult for me.
Bob Draznik
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Author: annev
Date: 2012-06-25 16:23
I've been playing tenor and alto saxophone for just under a year. I was fortunate to be able to borrow both instruments while deciding if it was for me, and if you have the option, I'd highly recommend borrowing to start. It may also help you to decide which saxophone to play as well (or hook you into both of them, as it did for me!).
As far as embouchure strength goes, as mentioned above, the saxophone has a more relaxed embouchure then clarinet, and the tenor is more relaxed even then the alto. Personally, I find it still requires regular upkeep - the muscles used for the saxophone embouchure are somewhat different from those of the clarinet, and being able to keep the embouchure stable as you go up the registers requires strength of a different sort. I always know when I haven't been playing saxophone for a while!
One other thought is to see whether the saxophone will fit in with your church band. I'm guessing that with piano, guitar and drums you'll be fine. I periodically play with a woodwind quintet at our church, and the saxophone can be overpowering. It depends on the music and the arrangement.
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Author: dubrosa22
Date: 2012-06-26 00:15
You're not going to get anymore practise time with a sax - it's 3 or 4 times louder. Trust me I picked clarinet so I could blow a horn casually at home when sax practise was inappropriate - especially since I now have a 9 month old.
As said above numerously the embouchure is different. Your chops will be better off going from clarinet to sax than vice versa, IMO.
V
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Author: DrewSorensenMusic
Date: 2012-06-26 00:46
Since you are a beginner, I'd highly recommend not playing both at once. The embouchures are completely different, as is the technique and approach.
As for the question of which one is easier. There is no easier. Each one has their flaws. A clarinet can be hard to play up to pitch, but the sax can have pitch all over the board if you're not playing with good technique or a good setup. And if you play both, then you are cutting your already slight practice time in half. Not to mention destroying any progress you made on one instrument when you switch to the other.
This is why I said before, choose one instrument that you like the sound of, that you enjoy playing, and stick with it. You are going to go through periods where it's difficult. You are going to go through periods where it feels like everything is going right. But the worst thing you could do is quit when it seems hard, because you'll probably be the person saying "I wish I kept up the clarinet/sax/music/etc..." sometime down the line.
I play both Sax and Clarinet (as well as flute, oboe, etc...)
Drew S.
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Author: stuper1
Date: 2012-06-26 01:37
Drew,
You say that the embouchures are different between the clarinet and sax. Would you agree that the sax embouchure involves less muscular strength than the clarinet embouchure?
I'm not planning to play both at once. I've already mentioned that I don't have time to practice the clarinet enough. If I switch, it will be a complete switch. Just saxophone.
Thanks.
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Author: Simon
Date: 2012-06-26 02:35
What is the cost of the silencer? I went on their web but there are no prices.
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Author: ww.player
Date: 2012-06-26 03:19
Stuper1, saxes generally do require significantly less embouchure and air pressure. The fingerings are also easier. Most clarinet players have better success initially switching to tenor rather than alto because clarinet embouchure and voicing work well on tenor but not so much on alto. If you're making a total switch, then that may not matter.
FWIW, I find that sax works great in contemporary worship music. However, I never use clarinet unless we're doing a song that has a real Hebrew flavor to it.
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Author: DrewSorensenMusic
Date: 2012-06-26 03:31
Yes, the sax embouchure is a looser embouchure. But the trade off is you need to delicately control the reed, or the instrument will easily go out of tune. Clarinet can be easier, because it tends to hold it's tuning evenly. However, it sounds like it's holding tuning evenly flat in your case. My fourth point to you was to get a shorter barrel for your clarinet. This will bring the pitch up and you will effectively be able to play with a looser embouchure. I do this. It is not traditional, but it is necessary in order to facilitate sweeter tones on the flute and sax when I am doubling. If I had a tight embouchure on clarinet, and tried to go to flute, my tone would be harsh and lack depth.
If you want my honest opinion, you will look a lot cooler with a tenor sax in your hand than a clarinet. (Sorry fellow Bboarders, I hope you all don't hate me for saying that). It will also fit in better with electric instruments like electric guitar and bass guitar. You will not look cool if you are playing out of tune and honky, which is how most beginning saxophonists sound. But the clarinet can be an uncomfortable instrument to play, and in truth is my least favorite woodwind. I guess you won't really know till you try it and find out for yourself. I suggest the brand Yamaha, and avoid Bundy, Vito, or anything Chinese. You can also get a used Conn or Buescher at a decent price, but buying vintage really requires knowledge.
Drew S.
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Author: stuper1
Date: 2012-06-26 04:35
Where did I say anything about wanting to look cool? I'm almost 50 years old for crying out loud.
Also, where did I say anything about playing flat on the clarinet?
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Author: Campana
Date: 2012-06-26 08:10
..."What is the cost of the silencer? I went on their web but there are no prices"...
I paid £38 in the UK. For that I also got an instruction book and a Video DVD.
Although the Jazzlab home page doesn't give prices it does list stockists around the world.
FWIW the silencer is about much more than just embouchure muscle strengthening. If you follow all the exercises, all the aspects of control for producing a beautiful note should improve.
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Author: DrewSorensenMusic
Date: 2012-06-26 13:57
You're welcome for my assistance, 19 years of professional experience, free of charge.
Good luck.
Drew S.
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Author: Jack Kissinger
Date: 2012-06-26 14:34
I guess I'm going to have to disagree with many of the above responses. I've played clarinet and sax for over 50 years. During that time, there have been some periods where the clarinet has been my main instrument and other periods when the sax was. I think "more relaxed" or "looser" than clarinet is not an accurate description of the sax embouchure. I prefer "more flexible." There may be some players who can play in the clarion and altissimo ranges of the saxophone with the same embouchure that they use for the lowest notes, but I'm not one of them. I agree that the lowest notes do require a more relaxed embouchure than you will likely ever use on clarinet. From about G4 (see chart at top of page), however, my sax embouchure feels about the same as my clarinet embouchure to me. In the higher range, then, I don't find much relaxation in the embouchure and in moving between ranges, I find I have to make greater adjustments on the sax. If I find either instrument more fatiguing for my embouchure, it would be the saxophone but that's just my experience and it may be due to the fact that I'm playing a lot more clarinet than sax these days.
I think you should also keep in mind that, while the soprano sax has a smaller mouthpiece than the clarinet and you may be able to have the mouthpiece enter your mouth at the same angle as your clarinet, alto and tenor sax mouthpieces are larger and (unless you play clarinet at an extreme angle) enter your mouth at a completely different angle than the clarinet. Also, physically, you need more air through the horn and have more weight to support with an alto or tenor sax. These may not be issues for you but it is something to consider in deciding to make a change.
In any case, it's not clear to me that you will feel embouchure "relief" if you switch from clarinet to saxophone.
Since you've been playing for 2 1/2 years, however, I think you should explore the reason you still feel fatigued after playing for only 15 minutes in church. If you've been at all faithful in your practicing, your clarinet embouchure should be well enough developed by now that this should not be happening.
(Drew S. has already suggested much of what I'm about to say in his first post but I think it bears repeating.) Your problem suggests to me that: (1) you may be using a setup that is too resistant, e.g., reeds that are too hard or not properly balanced for your mouthpiece (and the effect becomes more noticeable if you are trying to play at a louder volume with the group than you use when your practice), a mouthpiece that is not be appropriate for your physical characteristics (perhaps too open?), a clarinet that is more resistant than it should be perhaps because of small leaks or (since I don't know what you are playing), because of age or poor construction, (2) you may be "biting" (clamping down on your mouthpiece) at church, either from nerves or in an attempt to bring your volume or pitch up to the rest of the group (which may be where Drew is coming from), (3) you are carrying too much tension when you play, (4) etc., etc., etc.
It might be useful for you to let us know what equipment -- clarinet, mouthpiece, reeds -- you are currently using. There are people on this Board who can spot mismatches. Also, if you are becoming fatigued when you perform but not when you practice, you might explore what you are doing differently when you perform. Do you sit (perhaps with the clarinet resting on your lap) when you practice and stand when you play in church, e.g.? But...
If your teacher is a good player on both instruments, s/he should be able to provide you with a better answer regarding a possible switch than strangers who are inclined to respond with varying degrees of thoughtfulness and regardless of their level of skill and experience. (Surely, you can trust your teacher more than a bunch of strangers. If not, you have the wrong teacher.) And, more important IMO, a good teacher should be able to pinpoint the reason you are fatiguing so quickly on the clarinet.
Best regards,
jnk
edited for grammar and punctuation
Post Edited (2012-06-26 14:44)
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Author: JonTheReeds
Date: 2012-06-27 08:16
It would be interesting to know what your teacher has said about your embouchure fatigue - 15 minutes is not very long
Also, when you say you can't always practise regularly do you mean you miss one or two practices during the week, or do weeks go by without you practising?
Finally, drums + piano + amplified instruments = lots of volume. Maybe you are trying to be heard over the band and tensing up, thus tiring yourself out prematurely. In which case see if standing in front of the band helps, or perhaps you need to mic up the clarinet as well
--------------------------------------
The older I get, the better I was
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Author: William
Date: 2012-06-28 14:52
I would recommend playing Forestone sax reeds. They retain their tonal quality from low to as high as you can play and are always ready to play requiring no break-in or moistening. I use then on all of my clarinet and sax mouthpieces.
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Author: Jack Kissinger
Date: 2012-06-28 18:58
Don't you think he ought to decide whether or not he's going to take up the saxophone first.
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Author: William
Date: 2012-06-28 20:20
Yes, but if he does, Forestone sax reeds will make learning so much easier. No more cane hassles to solve while mastering the basics--just learn the fingerings and "unique" embouchure and you're on the way.
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Author: Tony M
Date: 2012-06-28 22:02
I'm not sure how much I agree with the idea that synthetic reeds help beginners. I don't think that they harm beginners but I think I learned some things about clarinet sound by adjusting reeds (often too much and too often) and listening closely. I play Legere Signature reeds on my clarinet these days but I never thought reed adjustment was a problem. I think having to adjust too many reeds is a problem but anything that gets you to listen more closely than you otherwise would have done has a benefit in it.
So to get onto the thread, isn't the choice one of sound? Unless there are specific physical difficulties with either instrument that causes fatigue in an inordinately short time, the choice between instruments should be on what timbre is attractive to the player.
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Author: stuper1
Date: 2012-06-29 18:19
Well, here's an update from the original poster. I talked to my teacher, and he thinks it makes perfect sense for me to switch to the sax. He knows that I'm diligent about practicing, because he's seen the progress I've made to date. But he also understands that I'm a busy guy, who doesn't always have time to practice enough. He basically said that in that situation, everything else being equal, he could definitely see switching to sax, and he thinks it will be easier for me to keep my sax embouchure in shape rather than my clarinet embouchure. He also turned me on to a used Evette & Schaeffer tenor sax that a going-out-of-business music store had for sale. I picked it up for $150 yesterday, and with $200 in repairs/adjustments, I should have a pretty good sax to work with. I should be ready to get started in a week. I figure I can always come back to the clarinet after the kids are grown, and I have more free time. I do prefer the clarinet sound. Kenny G and his ilk ruined the sax for me, but at least I'm not taking up the soprano sax. Also, a little more volume for me will be a good thing in the band I play with.
As for synthetic reeds, I'm already sold. I've been using Legere's for a year now, and I'm so much happier. No, I don't think they are quite as good as the best cane reeds, although I'm not sure anybody who's more than 10 feet away from me would know the difference. But when you don't have enough time to even practice properly, you sure don't have time to mess with cane reeds either, to try to find the ones that are decent. I'm pretty sure that any defect in my tone was mainly due to me and not to the Legere's.
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