 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2012-06-15 16:39
This applies mainly to techs/repairers.
When you've worked on an instrument and write out the final bill for the customer, do you list everything you've done and price it accordingly to the job or do you itemise every single aspect and then subtotal the parts and labour prices before the total cost?
Only today I was told by a customer who was happy with my work (I overhauled his tenor sax) that he wasn't happy in that I didn't itemise his bill and show in detail the parts and labour prices, even though I had written a list of everything I'd done. I've never itemised any of my bills in such great detail before and never had any complaints.
I won't be changing how I write out my bills - I set prices for what I do and anything extra is added to them (such as removing dents, relocating thumbrests and filling in holes, repairing cracks and bushing toneholes, solder joints, extra pads or springs or other extra things not covered in the basic pricing).
I've witnessed in the past (when working as a repairer in a local music shop in my teens) some tight-fisted (but relatively wealthy) customers have been funny and refused to pay the labour cost on the bill.
I've never known any repairers to list both parts and labour costs as they usually have all inclusive set prices which depend on the amount of work done - a minimum set charge for doing a small job like replacing a pad or tenon cork, tuning work or relocating a thumbrest, the lowest set price for a basic check-up (to get the instrument working without taking too much of it apart), middle cost for a general service (usually carried out every one to two years depending on how much use the instrument gets) and highest price for a full overhaul (a complete rebuild replacing all pads, corks and felts to make the instrument play like new or better than new).
If I were to itemise every single piece of cork used, every spring used, every drop of glue used, etc. then it'll take me a lifetime to write out and add up the bill!
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
Post Edited (2012-06-15 19:08)
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Author: SteveG_CT
Date: 2012-06-15 17:05
I've done busines with several repair techs and recall only one of them ever giving me an itemized bill. When I send an instrument in for an overhaul I tend not to care what each individual procedure in the overhaul costs especially since the price is generally agreed upon up front.
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2012-06-15 17:25
I don't write bills, but I sure get them.
For instance, my car mech would itemize
- hardware (eg tyres, brake disk, water pump)
- labour (4h mechanic, replacing FL brake disk, replaced water pump, changed tyres)
But that's about it. I know what has been made, and what had to be replaced/bought. But it doesn't go into details like "replace brake disk 25 minutes" or so.
My dentist's bill don't look fundamentally different, nor do the kiddie doc's.
--
Ben
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Author: kdk
Date: 2012-06-15 17:56
Something tells me you're going to get a lot more replies from repair customers than from repairers (after all, we outnumber repairers by quite a lot).
I *have* gotten those carefully itemized and priced-out bills from my auto repair shop, but it's computer-generated output that only requires the service writer to select service codes on a terminal screen. The computer software then calculates an estimate and spits out the final invoice after everything is finished. It doesn't require much human interference.
The repairers I've used have always given me an estimate based on the time they expect the work to take and the cost of materials they expect to use. Most of the time, unless an unexpected problem is major, the final bill is either the same as the estimate or it's lower, if less work than projected was needed. In nearly every case, there is some indication written down of what was done, if not pad-by-pad and spring-by-spring then, at least, how many pads were replaced and what other work was needed - repair a crack, "adjust LH lever keys as needed," - that kind of thing. Then, again, I've often been sitting next to him at the bench watching what he was doing, or I at least have access to him and can ask which pads he worked on without making him write it down, much less itemize the cost in parts and labor time for each.
To tell the truth, I've never concerned myself so much with what was done or how much it cost. I'm mostly concerned with how the clarinet plays when the work is finished. A clarinet that plays well with all of my complaints having been addressed is far more important than being able to compare and shop prices to find the lowest one, which other than simply distrusting the repairman (why would you use someone you don't trust in the first place?) seems like the only reason for wanting a minutely itemized bill.
Karl
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Author: Caroline Smale
Date: 2012-06-15 18:19
I always give a pretty complete summary of the work I have carried out but there is no itemisation of labour or parts prices except in the rare cases when a very expensive item e.g. a complete RH key assembly for flute or a spike mechanism for bassoon has been fitted.
Just one final total figure at the bottom plus any accessories such as greases oils swabs etc requested..
I have never had a customer query this and in fact many seem pleasantly surprised by the amount of detail actually included.
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2012-06-15 20:24
Most of the techs in the States and Canada quote an all encompassing fee that covers any of the following........(stuff).....
And that fee is around $500 to $600 (US dollars) for a complete overhaul (on clarinets).
It seems North American customers are pretty comfortable with that. You as an artisan should probably try to get your customers to be happy with that as well. After all, they are buying your 'expertise' not just installed widgets at 40 pounds per hour.
................Paul Aviles
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Author: sbrodt54
Date: 2012-06-15 21:58
Chris.
I can sympathize with what you’re going through. There are several shops in within a 65 mile radius of me that will itemize every little thing they say they are going to do to your sax or that they did to your sax. Generally they itemize things that are just worthless to mention like “close examination of every spring for tension, support, control, action, maneuverability and strength”. What???
A lot of people think that’s great because of the huge amount of work that will be done compared to “overhaul”, heck that’s just one word, how much work can that be? Every time I see one of those estimates I get ill, it’s just pompous and misleading.
When I make out a bill I do mention how many pads I replaced, how many tenon corks, how many bent keys I found or that I filed three wells level. Past that it’s “leaks, regulation and/or strip and clean”. I never hide anything but very few folks really need such detail.
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Author: sfalexi
Date: 2012-06-15 22:02
The problem with itemizing labour is you're setting a "limit" to your labor. For example, if you itemize oiling a clarinet, and charge, let's say, "2 hours" labor, you're opening yourself up to the argument of 'I've heard it only takes one hour'. Or maybe there's some special case where this clarinet needs more oil than others and it takes 3 hours and you've lost an hour of labor.
That's why I don't like dealerships. They will have a set number of "hours" for a piece of maintenance, and perhaps it's routine enough that it'll take half the time, and they get paid now twice as much.
Maybe you can compromise and list out what you did, replace, etc., but still not put down hours you spent on it. A more complete list wouldn't be a bad thing if they want it, but how are you supposed to know how much time it'll take NEXT time to pin a crack, depending on location, do you have to remove keys to do it, etc, and it might just get confusing to the customer.
Alexi
PS - I always kinda scoff at those wealthy individuals who haggle and insist on not paying labor, but then again, sometime's it's the reason they've accumulated and held onto wealth (being VERY picky).
US Army Japan Band
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Author: sfalexi
Date: 2012-06-15 22:04
PPS: why not charge for taking the time to itemize the list? I mean, it takes time to write down everything you're doing while your doing it, right? $5 detailed service ticket fee? lol!
US Army Japan Band
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2012-06-15 22:23
Alexi - "PS - I always kinda scoff at those wealthy individuals who haggle and insist on not paying labor, but then again, sometime's it's the reason they've accumulated and held onto wealth (being VERY picky)."
I couldn't agree more with you there! It makes my blood boil when I go to lengths to deliver an instrument to some people only to find out they live in a mansion compared to my house and have several expensive cars in the driveway and they're the ones that complain I charge too much! I had a rant about this on here several years ago to get it out of my system.
I usually list the work carried out on the bill which (for a general service) usually reads along the lines of:
"Remove all keys, screws, springs, key corks, speaker tube, polish keys, pillars and socket rings, clean joints, toneholes and speaker tube, polish screws, oil bore, seal end grain in sockets and tenons with wax, refit speaker tube, fit nylon tip to throat G# adjusting screw, replace key corks, replace defective pads and springs, assemble and oil mechanism, balance spring tensions and regulate."
... which should be enough for anyone to see what has been done. Some things not mentioned are adjusting ring key heights or bending some keys as that usually has to be done anyway (and regulation covers that to some degree).
At the end of the list I put the price and any sundries (replacement tenon corks, any extra pads that aren't included in the cost, etc.), but don't make a note of the time taken to complete the work.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
Post Edited (2012-06-16 11:46)
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Author: jbutler ★2017
Date: 2012-06-15 22:24
In general........no. I do have a couple of customers that want me to itemize so I do. I've not had any complaints so far.
john b
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2012-06-16 05:08
I've never written an itemized list with prices on the bill and no one has ever wanted one. I occasionally write a sort of list of what I've done, without individual prices, but only if the person is intereted in this. Probably less than 5% of people are interested. Other than that, I usually just write "clarinet repair" or something like that. It's very rare that someone cares or want more details in writing.
But, I sometimes explain what needs to be done or was done either before and/or after the repair. For example, I might check the instrument while the owner is here and show/explain them what pads need to be replaced, etc. Some people are only interested after the repair and want to know what was done, so I tell them. Some people (very few) want to know the prices before the repair, when I show them what is needed, so I tell them. For example I see that a certain pad is torn and leaking, I explain I will replace it and tell them how much it will cost, if they ask. Most only want the estimate of the total price.
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Author: Catherine B.
Date: 2012-06-16 06:03
I list the cost of supplies/parts used and then the cost of work done, but haven't ever listed how much time it took me to perform a service.
And as far as the charging for labor goes, one of my mentors told me that when you get a customer looking for a deal by all means give them a break on the parts and supplies if you want, but never, ever on labor because your particular skills and expertise are what brings people to you and if you are willing to charge less for them it indicates that you don't think you're worth what you charge.
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