 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: JonTheReeds
Date: 2012-06-12 15:41
I am starting to learn the Larghetto from Mozart's quintet and I would like to understand the music a bit better so I can play it better. I have never done any sort of music analysing before and wonder where to start!
If there is a good website about analysing music, or even better some info on the Larghetto itself so I can get some 'hands on' experience
Thanks
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The older I get, the better I was
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Author: Bob Phillips
Date: 2012-06-12 17:27
It's a bummer, but the Larghetto is in 3, not 6.
If you haven't already messed up your life by (almost) learning it, you might want to set a metronome to a very slow pulse and set it to two beat measures. (So it makes a CLICK/clack CLICK/clack) noise.
Then work to get all of those notes on the down and up beats in strict rhythm.
Emphasize the downbeats the CLICKS, and make everything come out through the clacks to the next CLICK.
It's worth the effort.
(same trick works in the more complex second movement of the Brahms 5tet.)
Bob Phillips
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Author: Liquorice
Date: 2012-06-12 21:08
Bob didn't answer your question about analysis, but gave his ideas on learning the piece from a performance perspective. I find it very difficult to get my head around his post.
-It's highly unlikely that Mozart ever saw a metronome in his lifetime. Why is it important to work on this movement with a metronome?
-Mozart gives explicit instructions concerning emphasis by his use of slurs. Why does Bob find it important to emphasize every main beat?
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Author: Bob Phillips
Date: 2012-06-12 23:25
Back in my youth, those grupettos in the Larghetto appeared in my method books, and I quickly learned to rip them off.
Faced with the actual context, I found that I "needed" to count in 6. I (too personal?) have had a difficult time bringing my 6 back to 3; and it makes a whole lot of difference.
So, my learning technique is to still get 6 to a measure, but I have to do it sneakily.
Many of my musical friends have the stunning ability to mentally switch to a double count (3 to 6, 4 to 8) as needed. I don't. SIGH.
... and I NEED the metronome's pulse to keep me honest.
Bob Phillips
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Author: EBC
Date: 2012-06-12 23:56
Not to hijack a potentially interesting conversation, but I have a hunch the original poster was referring to a theoretical analysis of the Larghetto. If not, this post can be ignored, but if so:
Unless you have a relatively solid background (say two to three years of undergraduate studies at a major university) in music theory, it would be difficult to perform an in-depth analysis of the piece. If you do have at least a solid background in harmony, Bill Caplin's book on Classical Form is an excellent (university standard) resource on this music.
Otherwise, you can get a lot of very useful information from a relatively simple harmonic analysis of the piece. Identify key, modulations, harmonic function and cadences. I find that doing even just this can deepen my understanding of a piece and inform my performance of it.
Hope this helps,
Eric
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Author: JonTheReeds
Date: 2012-06-13 08:40
Thanks Eric, I was looking for a theoretical analysis
I don't have any undergrad learning behind me so I think what you mentioned is a good place to start
By harmonic function do you mean work out what the chord is then what the actual notes are (in terms of tonic, supertonic, mediant etc.)?
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The older I get, the better I was
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Author: Bob Phillips
Date: 2012-06-13 17:20
I've transcribed (laboriously) pieces into Finale and asked IT to give me a harmonic analysis; and that has been useless.
Bob Phillips
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Author: Buster
Date: 2012-06-14 08:06
Bob Phillips wrote:
> I've transcribed (laboriously) pieces into Finale and asked IT
> to give me a harmonic analysis; and that has been useless.
Interesting....
If we are reliant upon a computer program to give us an harmonic analysis/structure of a piece to be performed, should we be giving any form of advice?
Why would one be beholden to Finale for this knowledge?
Would any enlightenment even be visible to one relying on such means?
> It's a bummer, but the Larghetto is in 3, not 6.
> If you haven't already messed up your life by (almost) learning it, you
> might want to set a metronome to a very slow pulse and set it to two
> beat measures. (So it makes a CLICK/clack CLICK/clack) noise.
> Then work to get all of those notes on the down and up beats in strict
> rhythm.
> Emphasize the downbeats the CLICKS, and make everything come out
> through the clacks to the next CLICK.
> It's worth the effort.
> (same trick works in the more complex second movement of the Brahms
> 5tet.)
----and----
> Back in my youth, those grupettos in the Larghetto appeared in my
> method books, and I quickly learned to rip them off.
> Faced with the actual context, I found that I "needed" to count in 6. I
> (too personal?) have had a difficult time bringing my 6 back to 3; and it
> makes a whole lot of difference.
> So, my learning technique is to still get 6 to a measure, but I have to do
> it sneakily.
> Many of my musical friends have the stunning ability to mentally switch to
> a double count (3 to 6, 4 to 8) as needed. I don't. SIGH.
What in the world are you attempting to convey?
-Jason
Post Edited (2012-06-14 08:20)
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Author: EBC
Date: 2012-06-14 14:45
Well, a harmonic analysis would be a good place to start, for various reasons. The information you can get from this can help you most with:
1. Intonation: identifying what chord member you're playing. If you're playing with a string quartet as opposed to a piano reduction, this is especially important, since you'll be adjusting intonation of chords to just intonation, as opposed to equal temperament. Also, you often have to decide whether the intonation of the LINE (horizontal dimension) is more important than the intonation of the CHORD (vertical dimension), and an analysis can help with this.
2. Interpretation: just as a quick example, in the second bar of the Larghetto, you play a c# concert (e) against a G major chord (IV in D major) in the strings. This is a non-harmonic tone, specifically an accented passing tone. Now you don't have to go out of your way to emphasize the dissonance, or really do anything dramatic, but just being aware of it will probably make you play it just a LITTLE bit different from how you would have had you not been aware of it. This may seem like a head-trip, but I assure you, it isn't!
To do all this, I'd suggest identifying keys, harmonies, non-harmonic tones and your position in each chord. Since the texture of the clarinet quintet is much more complex than, say, a chorale, which is what most harmony students start with, you have to learn to sort through all the minutiae and get the broad harmonic motions. The bass (cello, in this case) is the easiest way to keep track of what's happening, and you'll get better at separating harmonic from non-harmonic tones as you go along.
Good luck!
Eric
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Author: Tony Pay ★2017
Date: 2012-06-14 17:41
Great post, Eric.
Appreciating that distinction -- between notes that function as appoggiaturas, and notes that don't -- can be fantastically useful in playing classical music in a meaningful way. I like to say that that's not surprising, because the opposition 'belonging/not belonging' could be said to lie at the heart of our emotional lives.
Similarly, most people don't notice that the first note of the second bar of the Adagio of K622 is such an appoggiatura, but the first note of the fourth bar isn't.
Tony
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Author: JonTheReeds
Date: 2012-06-18 13:43
Thanks for these comments - very useful, and hopefully they will improve my interpretation of the piece
For me this is Mozart at his best; a deceptively simple piece that probably will keep on revealing more and more the longer I play it
My overiding concern at the moment is air support. The Larghetto is a very gentle, quiet piece. I am finding it difficult to provide the air support at low volume, and the sound I'm making is pretty awful. At higher volume I don't have such a problem, but as soon as I play quietly it becomes very wispy and I start squeaking. Using my diaphragm to blow more air down seems to make it worse
I was wondering if anyone had any tips, or if they have had the same problem and overcome it using some techniques or exercises?
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The older I get, the better I was
Post Edited (2012-06-18 15:11)
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Author: Bob Phillips
Date: 2012-06-18 15:26
Whispy sound.
I the ww5 I play with, we have agreed that we will not play softer than we can play with a good, solid tone quality.
What the heck. Quiet is relative.
Bob Phillips
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Author: Tony Pay ★2017
Date: 2012-06-18 17:57
>> My overiding concern at the moment is air support. The Larghetto is a very gentle, quiet piece. I am finding it difficult to provide the air support at low volume, and the sound I'm making is pretty awful. At higher volume I don't have such a problem, but as soon as I play quietly it becomes very wispy and I start squeaking. Using my diaphragm to blow more air down seems to make it worse.>>
This is a misconception of the action of the diaphragm.
You use your diaphragm to control quiet playing, not to blow more air down, but to work against the harder blowing that otherwise would result in a higher dynamic.
Play a chosen few notes of the passage FORTE. You notice that your abdominal muscles are working to do this, because the front of your abdomen is a bit more flexed than it is when you're NOT blowing.
Now, keeping your abdomen flexed to exactly the same extent, play the passage quietly. You can do this because your diaphragm is able to resist your blowing, resulting in less pressure and slower airflow.
It seems a bit creepy, because you can't feel your diaphragm. But it works, and gives you much better control of low dynamic playing.
There are various threads about it; try:
http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/read.html?f=20&i=714&t=714
Tony
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