 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: bethmhil
Date: 2012-06-14 04:22
So, I bought an A clarinet in January of '09... a local instrument store had a 70's era R13 for a wonderful price, so my parents and I jumped on the opportunity. I have never played on another A clarinet other than my own...
Before now, I had very few opportunities to use the instrument. The last time I used it was in Fall of '09. At that time, I wasn't nearly as sensitive to every tiny detail of my instruments, so I never noticed what I'm noticing now...
Currently, I'm beginning the Schumann Fantasy Pieces on A clarinet... I was ecstatic to finally use my beloved A clarinet, but I'm not so excited anymore. The instrument is unbelievably stuffy and resistant to the point that it gives me a headache to play for more than a few minutes. It's easy to play pianississimo to mezzo piano and has a beautiful tone, but anything beyond mezzo piano is a struggle.
Is this just me? Are all A clarinets this way? If they are, does anyone have any advice on making it less difficult to play?
BMH
Illinois State University, BME and BM Performance
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Author: SteveG_CT
Date: 2012-06-14 04:30
I don't notice that my A clarinet is all that much more resistant than my various Bb clarinets. Perhaps yours may have developed a few minor pad leaks since it has been sitting for the past 2.5 years.
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Author: bethmhil
Date: 2012-06-14 04:35
I have wondered that. I just didn't want to spend the money to send it in if there's nothing wrong with it.
BMH
Illinois State University, BME and BM Performance
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Author: Grabnerwg
Date: 2012-06-14 04:48
Beth.........
There is something obviously wrong with it. There's no reason it shouldn't be as rich and free blowing as your Bb. Find a good tech and get the leaks out and, next time, don't let 2.5 years go by without playing it again.
Walter Grabner
www.clarinetxpress.com
Hand Crafted Clarinet Mouthpieces
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Author: Chris Hill
Date: 2012-06-14 04:50
It may be leaking, and it also may have shrunk while sitting in the case. It may open up with use, or you may need to try different barrels.
Chris
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2012-06-14 09:17
I hate to disagree with such esteemed colleagues, however, there IS a bit more resistance with the 'A' clarinet (particularly the Buffets). And it will be more obvious if you haven't played one in awhile. Yamaha As are less resistant and I found that German System clarinets can't even be told apart (separate from the pitch of course).
If all is well at low volumes (no stuffiness, hard to speak notes etc.) than I think you just need to spend a good week playing MOSTLY your 'A.' The key is to always bring it out and practice on it (at least once a week). In fact practice on the 'A' and perform on the 'B.' That'll just make the 'Bb' that much easier.
.................Paul Aviles
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Author: FanR.
Date: 2012-06-14 10:47
For the past 3 years or so, I've been using my pair of Buffet RCs exactly like you: I play on my Bb most of the time, while the A sits patiently in its case, waiting to be used in the uni orchestra, or in the occasional Schumann 
That being said, I find the resistance of the two horns almost identical. In fact, I consider the A more free-blowing than the Bb!
Anyway, I don't think it's normal for a clarinet - be it an A or a Bb - to give you a headache from blowing, so taking it to a tech seems like the best idea to me!
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Author: rmk54
Date: 2012-06-14 12:26
I hate to disagree with the esteemed Mr. Aviles, but he is mistaken about Buffet A Clarinets always having more resistance than the Bb instruments.
I have two: one matches my B-flat very well, and one is a bit *less* resistant.'
I'm not saying there are no examples of Buffet A Clarinets that exhibit resistance. I have owned such an instrument in the past (when i was too young to know better).
I am saying that it is dangerous to make a blanket statement.
@OP: I do agree that your instruments bore may have shrunk a bit due to non-use. It is also possible that some pads have deteriorated or dried out, causing leaks. Does the upper joint pass the suction test?
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2012-06-14 14:52
I have two A clarinets, neither is at all stuffy, both play just like Bb clarinets. Sounds like the particular instrument is faulty is some way(s).
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Author: kdk
Date: 2012-06-14 15:23
I'll split the difference among the previous responses and say that if the instrument is as difficult to play as you describe, there is certainly something wrong that should be repairable.
That said, the general wisdom back when this A clarinet was made (1970s) was, indeed, that A clarinets (most American symphony players of the time were playing Buffets of one model or another) were expected to be *slightly* harder to blow than B-flat instruments, owing both to the larger internal volume and certain compromises in the bores that minimized the difference in length (and tone hole distances) that would have resulted had the bores been identical to B-flat designs. A good Buffet A clarinet was still an excellent instrument and not anything that would have caused headaches. But Gigliotti always warned, at last back then (I studied with him in the late '60s and early '70s) that a reed meant specifically for use in a performance that only involved an A clarinet would probably be lighter than one you'd want to use on the B-flat (so in a mixed-repertoire program you'd do your reed work on a B-flat clarinet to avoid having the reed be too easy to close).
Instrument design has come a long way since then, with more mathematically based (ultimately computer-aided) acoustics replacing traditional trial and error techniques, and there's no reason why a modern A clarinet shouldn't play as easily as a B-flat. And I'll repeat to be clear that the difference in resistance between a good B-flat and a good A would have been minimal even in the '70s.
Bottom line: have the instrument checked by a good repair tech. If restoring the bore to original specs is involved, or dressing tone holes that have become desicated and are allowing air to escape through tiny openings, you need someone who is highly skilled at woodwind repair. Have you checked thoroughly for any any small cracks that might have developed as the wood dried out over the years?
Karl
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Author: ariel3
Date: 2012-06-14 16:05
I have two Selmer Series 10, A and B-flat clarinets that I purchased in 1972. Both clarinets play with the same resistance. I can switch between the two with no effort whatsoever. The only thing that I notice is the slightly warmer feeling with the "A" horn.
Two things - I practice often on the "A" horn, even if the piece does not call for that pitch just to keep it in shape and to enjoy its beauty. I do, of course, use it frequently since most of my playing is chamber music.
Then, I have my technician fine tune the instruments on a regular basis.
I'll mention that these clarinets are "mazzeo" models, but that should not enter into the resistance issue here.
Gene
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Author: JamesOrlandoGarcia
Date: 2012-06-14 17:26
I'll shoot you a facebook message but aside from that:
Assuming that the horn is in adjustment, it may need a different barrel to help match it to what you are used to with your Tosca Bb. I'm a big fan of Muncy-Buffet and Backun Barrels.
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2012-06-14 17:37
Sorry Karl, but I disagree with you about pre-and post-1970s A clarinets and "computer-aided design". "Computer-aided" acoustical design requires mathematically correct algorithms describing the acoustics of the clarinet -- show me where those equations exist! As far as I know the "science" of clarinet acoustics is still mostly empirical and tradition-based; I don't believe there exists a complete and verified acoustical model of the clarinet with sufficient detail to be used for actual clarinet design and manufacture. And even if there were, I'm not sure that clarinet bores and toneholes (especially on wood instruments given the variability and environmental instability of the materials) could be cut exactly to the dimensions specified by such formulas (and those dimensions maintained over time), even with CNC machinery -- CNC machines are not magical, they are just machine tools whose motion is controlled by a computer program rather than a human operator.
Maybe you (being "Buffet-centric" as you seem to be) are talking mostly about Buffet's instruments. I can't argue with you there, I don't play Buffets and rarely work on them. But there are many, many other brands of clarinet out there and they don't all respond like Buffets.
A small data point: both of my "free-blowing" A clarinets predate the 1970s -- one is from (I think) the 1950s or 60s and the other is from the 1920s. Neither is a Buffet, by the way. I've played quite a few other pre-1970 A clarinets and wouldn't say that all of them (or even a majority) were stuffy.
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Author: kdk
Date: 2012-06-14 18:31
David, I'm surprised to read that today's instruments are not designed in a more technologically advanced way than those of 40-50 years ago, but it was only an assumption - I certainly stand corrected (though a little shocked).
Yes, the "wisdom" I described was very Buffet-centric, which would have described most of the major *American* symphony clarinetists in the mid-20th century, although I'm sure there were Selmer players among the upper ranks here as well. The Selmer 10G was Gigliotti's attempt with Selmer to incorporate all of Hans Moennig's hand tweaking (all arrived at by trial and error over the long years of Moennig's career) plus a few of Gigliotti's own idiosyncratic preferences, into the basic design of the instrument, so it was largely Buffet-based as well. The only reason I brought it up is that the instrument Beth writes about *is* a 1970s Buffet R13. I didn't mean to describe any other clarinets by any other makers at any other time before or since.
BTW, FWIW, I've played the same set of 10G clarinets since the 1970s and find my A clarinet to be the equal of my B-flat in every way.
Karl
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Author: Caroline Smale
Date: 2012-06-14 18:55
Any wood instrument needs to be played regularly to keep it in good condition.
Why not split your practice sessions by playing Bb and A on alternating sessions.
There is even an argument for doing your "tonal" practice primarily on the Bb since the tone is generally a little brighter and so needs more work, an your technical practice on the A.
I have Leblanc (LL), Buffet (S1) and B&H (926) pairs and on all of these there is no huge difference in feel / response but in general all the Bbs are marginally freer playing than the As but all the As have slightly fuller tone qualities.
As noted in earlier posts have a good tech check your A over, there is clearly something not right with it and I am pretty sure it has nothing to do with the barrels.
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Author: Bob Barnhart ★2017
Date: 2012-06-14 19:52
The A clarinets I have played have been similar to the Bb instruments, albeit with a bit deeper, more resonant sound and perhaps a bit more resistance.
On "average" I would expect an A clarinet to have a "bit" more resistance than a Bb, simply because of its greater bore length/diameter ratio. Accordingly, unless I'm switching between A/Bb, I would probably use a slightly softer reed on an A clarinet.
However, I would definitely have an instrument with the playing characteristics you describe checked over by a good technician because (1) it sounds like a real anomaly and (2) no instrument should have so much resistance that you experience physical ailments.
Bob Barnhart
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Author: Bill Patry
Date: 2012-06-14 20:51
I have a 1959 R13 and it plays as freely as my 1961 R13 Bb. Both play more freely than a pair of more recent LeBlanc Legacies I have.
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Author: bethmhil
Date: 2012-06-14 23:10
Thank you all for your wonderful responses!
Thanks to you Karl, I think I have figured out what the problem is-- I was checking for cracks, and I happened to notice that the pads on the upper joint are considerably different than the pads on the lower joint. The pads on the upper joint have the nice indented circles were the pads sit on the toneholes. That is not so on the lower joint-- the pads have no indents and are completely smooth. I have to wonder if this is leading to the pads not sealing.
So, I tried playing on just the upper joint with barrel and mouthpiece-- the response is great. Sound is clear, warm, and resonant. Once I put the lower joint on, it's completely different-- stuffy, very resistant, airy. Could the pads on the lower joint be the problem?
BMH
Illinois State University, BME and BM Performance
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Author: Caroline Smale
Date: 2012-06-14 23:19
Cut a piece of cigarette paper about 1/8" wide and use this as a feeler guage.
Place it under the edge of a pad and close pad with light finger pressure. Repeat this at at least 5-6 places around the circumference of tonehole (ensuring paper is only under the nearside edge of hole).
There should be a light and even drag on the paper at each point.
If paper is tight at some points but loose at other the pad is not seating correctly.
Repeat this for each pad on the joint.
If pads are not level this is really a job for a competent tech to adjust.
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Author: Bob Bernardo
Date: 2012-06-15 00:07
Beth- Often the upper register can have minor leaks, even when using cigarette paper to test, which is a very good test. I've seen Moenig throw out 5 or more pads just to find one really good one that seals. Needless to say pads are like reeds, they aren't always perfect. A good test to see where your problem lies is play the Mendelssohn's Italian, the 4th, where the break is going from the throat A, then 3, G#'s then to the middle B, back to the A; that fast tonguing part. If you need to push more air then needed into the horn to hit the B, the leak could very well be in the upper register even though the pads look sealed. When over blowing to hit that B, most likely the tonguing will get messed up most of the time.
For sure re-pad by the best repairmen near you or ship the horn off. Then play it. I had several A clarinets from the 70's, still have 1 that I can't give up.
A's from this era are usually very good, perhaps just a shade more resistant because it's a shade longer. However, you should be able to play any horn for several hours WITHOUT headaches. Thats nut's to suffer like this. Also a different barrel could help make the A the same resistance as the Bb.
Where do you live? Ask your teacher, or a good symphony pro where they have repairs done. I'd prefer asking a sym. player. By the way I really like cork pads on the upper register because they don't leak and won't for several years.
I'm sure Greg, with the Chicago Sym or Eddie with the Baltimore Sym can guide you well. These symphony players don't mess around. If there's something wrong, their repairman will fix the problem perfectly. Both guy's often respond to people on this site. Look them up and say Hi! A bad horn that a symphony player plays and doesn't get it fixed, his days may be numbered.
Here in Los Angeles I like Levi for repair, major and minor repairs, at RDG Woodwinds.
There's also Mark Jacoby/Jacobi in Philly. He pretty much does all of the Philly players. I went to him when I was with the the Baltimore Synphonette and the Air Force DC Band. It was worth the trip. Took the train! I like trains for some weird reason! Before I went to Mark I went to Meonig, Hans was just a wonderful man. Mark pretty much took over Moenig's clients and Mark is also very nice.
In Michigan there is an older repairman near Lansing, Bob Scott. He's been doing these repairs since the 1960's or so. I call him Scotty. : }
I know there are many others. These guys will repad the horn and for sure get rid of the stuffiness. It may partly require a barrel change. Moenig/Buffet barrels were often the only choice of barrels during the '70's and before, however that may not be the case now. There are some great barrel makers now.
Some people may say to try a different mouthpiece. Since you posted something about this a few weeks ago if your new MP plays well on the Bb you are probably fine and don't need another change.
It's not at all uncommon for the great repairman to undercut holes, adjust the bores and perhaps ream the bores to get the horn playing as it should and in tune from the 1970's era. Tapered reamers are a sharp, like a knife, that repairmen make to readjust bores to Buffets standards. Really cool things. I made one for the mouthpiece bores.
I was at Interlochen Arts Academy in the very early '70's to the mid '70's and Scotty, Bob Scott, did my horns back then. Scotty was so cool. He'd go up to the Academy a few times a year and stay a few days, taking care of everyones horns. I actually don't remember him charging the students even for cracked horns. Maybe the school paid for this. Needless to say all of the students had the best quality playing horns. He does oboes too. Cracks were common in northern Michigan. Minus 15 degree weather, caused havic wth horns.
Now you have some good idea's what you can do to get the horn playing like it should and surely other members here can also help you along. I know I missed mentioning other great repairmen/women, kindly forgive me, because I've only worked with the above repairmen.
Who knows. if the pads are fine the repairman can still get the horn freed up. but my guess is the pads need to be sealed or replaced, most likely not all of them. Hope this helps.
Lastly I've given you names that I used from the east coast, the middle states, to the west coast. If you are not in a rush think about shipping your horn. I'd probably ship both horns, because I have extra horns I can use. Then you will be in fantastic shape for a few years. If you choose one of these people call them, ask for a rush, like a one week turnaround. Goole them or email me for numbers and addresses.
You will soon love your horn's' and of course in love with music.
Movie studio musician
Designer of the Grand Concert reeds.
Quality Control for Mitchell Lurie and Fred Hemke reeds
BA Peabody Conservatory
BS California Institute of Technology
Past instructor -York College and Kent State
Designer of - Vintage 1940 Cicero Mouthpieces and the La Vecchia mouthpieces
Yamaha Artist 2015
Post Edited (2012-06-15 11:14)
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Author: Bob Bernardo
Date: 2012-06-15 00:46
I just read a few other posts. Here's my observations.
When studying with Iggie Gennusa at Peabody he had a wonderful set of 1960's clarinets. The sound was simply within the major top orchestras, in the category of Harold Wright and Bob Marcellus. When he played other horns from his students after the early '70's his sound wasn't the same. The sound was very, very, different. I don't know what happened to Iggie's horns, but I'd pay a pretty penny for them. I feel that the horns Iggie played on were very special, therefore I have to say that almost all of the horns from this era were very good, but something happened to the horns that I stated above. I had a '68 Bb Buffet. Gennusa played it but sadly it was way too different then his.
I recently bought 2 new horns - 2012. R-13's. I also played the new vintage R13's based on the 1960's. The new R-13's horns are much better then the new Vintage '60's. The new Vintage horns, in my opinion, don't make it. Out of tune issues and also the sound. I have to say the Vintage horns played freely. I really liked that.
So folks Buffet's horns have always been different even from the same vintage and I strongly feel there was something special about the selective wood used by these pro's and how this special selected was cured. Was it harder wood, softer wood, stronger grain, weaker grain, I don't know, but the sound was very special. I'd buy his horns that Gennusa had for several thousand dollars. If anyone knows where they are or has them send an email! I'm rich, price isn't an issue! PLEASE email me! hehe
Designer of - Vintage 1940 Cicero Mouthpieces and the La Vecchia mouthpieces
Yamaha Artist 2015
Post Edited (2012-06-15 02:24)
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Author: bethmhil
Date: 2012-06-15 18:55
I've tried different barrels. They don't make a difference.
BMH
Illinois State University, BME and BM Performance
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Author: bethmhil
Date: 2012-06-16 19:12
I can't believe I forgot to check for that! I tried pressing all the keys down and covering the end of the lower joint with the fleshy part of my hand, and making a vacuum with my mouth...
It's leaking a lot, actually. Hooray! I was afraid I was going to have to begin looking at buying a new A clarinet.
BMH
Illinois State University, BME and BM Performance
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