 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Dgiacobb
Date: 2012-06-08 07:10
Hello,
I have a Tosca set - Bb and A. The A this year, unfortunately, has developed a crack around the throat A tone hole. Turns out Rochester's weather enjoys destroying woodwind horns... The crack hasn't gone through the bore, but extends about halfway into the tone hole and up about 3 inches! Yikes!
It still plays exceptionally well. What would be the best option to keep the price on the horn: replacing the upper joint (which Buffet has agreed to), or getting the crack sealed and tone hole replaced?
Thanks!
Dan
Post Edited (2012-06-08 07:16)
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2012-06-08 08:59
I don't know, I guess it depends on who the potential buyer is and how bad a repaired crack or a replaced joint sounds to them (i.e. the idea of it, not the sound of the instrument). At least here there are definitely no "rules" to how much of the value is lost.
Consider that with a new joint you don't know how it will play after. That's the main reason why almost everyone chooses to repair cracks instead of replacing joints. It can be anything from identical to significantly different (better or worse). Having the crack repaired will most likely keep the clarinet playing exactly the same as before.
>> The crack hasn't gone through the bore, but extends about halfway into the tone hole <<
The tone hole is hollow and filled with air... so how can you tell that the crack is about halfway into it...? ![[grin]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/smilie5.gif)
Post Edited (2012-06-08 12:39)
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Author: JHowell
Date: 2012-06-08 12:04
The sole value of a clarinet to me is how it plays. I once bought a brand new clarinet with a crack through the register hole. I reckon it took some doing to come up with the cash for a set of Toscas, and it's understandable that you'd be concerned seeing at least some of it swirling the drain, but if you replace the joint and no longer like how the instrument plays, have you gained or lost?
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Author: Dgiacobb
Date: 2012-06-08 14:56
Hm, that's interesting! I suppose you're right about the instrument playing well.
In response to clarnibass, you can tell if there's a crack in the tone hole if you take off the pad, shine a light in it, and see a crack extending down the side of the hole... It's really quite simple!
I suppose there's no scenario in which I'd get a new joint and have a similar playing/sounding instrument as before?
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2012-06-08 15:06
>> I suppose there's no scenario in which I'd get a new joint and have a similar playing/sounding instrument as before? <<
There is, but it's a matter of luck/coincidence and you can't know in advance.
>> you can tell if there's a crack in the tone hole... <<
I guess the smilies weren't enough to explain the joke... 
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Author: Jack Kissinger
Date: 2012-06-08 15:11
"I once bought a brand new clarinet with a crack through the register hole."
And paid significantly less than you would have if the instrument wasn't cracked, no?
While there may be an occasional rare buyer who won't discount a clarinet for a repaired crack, I think that person is the rare exception rather than the rule. A crack is structural damage. It signals a weakness in the wood and, in future, it may decide to reassert itself... or there may be other weaknesses. If your entire concern is resale value, I would say replace the joint. Of course, there is no guarantee that the replacement won't also crack eventually but, until it does, the clarinet has no structural damage to detract from its market value.
As Nitai says, if you choose to replace the joint, you won't know how the clarinet plays until your hardware has been transferred and refitted. The result may be better than, worse than, or the same as it was before the replacement. This is because joints are not custom matched during the manufacturing process. But your new joint will be manufactured to the same specifications and standards as the original one. If the clarinet plays extremely well, now and you don't see how it can be improved, it probably won't be. On the other hand, Buffet does have an interest in keeping you a happy customer so I doubt you will have to settle for a significant decline.
I don't know whether Buffet will let you keep the original joint or whether you have to trade it in to get the new one. If they let you keep it and there are no physical adjustments to the keys when they are fitted to the new joint (but this is a big assumption), you should be able to go back to the original if you are not satisfied with the new one. Whether you will have this option if you really like the way your A currently plays is worth checking out, IMO.
MOO,
jnk
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Author: JHowell
Date: 2012-06-08 15:24
No, Jack, I received no discount, and never regretted the purchase. The instrument was far and away the best of the batch, and I played it for six or seven years. I've never cared what I could sell a clarinet for later, I care how it plays right now. The only way I'd go for a new joint would be if it were an instrument I wasn't going to play, and I ONLY cared about selling it.
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Author: Dgiacobb
Date: 2012-06-08 17:29
Alright, well, here's the deal.
The crack worsened yesterday. There is now a massive airleak. I obviously love this horn, but I'm not sure if anything can be done at this point. It goes all the way to the cork - probably a good 4, 5 inches. It's still not through the bore, oddly enough.
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Author: Dgiacobb
Date: 2012-06-08 17:31
Nevermind, I can't figure out how to post a picture.
Post Edited (2012-06-08 17:32)
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Author: jmsa
Date: 2012-06-08 17:48
Most of the newer instruments crack due to improper aging of the wood and premature harvesting and then kiln treated to complete the process. Then they are more sensitive to humidity changes. That is why the older instruments are superior.
jmsa
Post Edited (2012-06-08 17:49)
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Author: JHowell
Date: 2012-06-08 17:59
Are you humidifying the *outside* of the instrument? Odd this time of year for a crack to get worse.
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Author: Dgiacobb
Date: 2012-06-08 18:50
I know, right?
When I first bought the instruments, I was living in Seattle, and never had any problems at all! Then, I moved to Rochester, and all Hell broke loose.
The crack yesterday was just a continuation of that... I guess there was just pressure that wasn't released yet.
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Author: JHowell
Date: 2012-06-08 19:05
Sorry, had to ask. I once had a student whose A clarinet developed the biggest, most gaping crack I'd ever seen. And it got bigger. He said he didn't understand, that he was keeping his clarinets humidified. I asked how, and he said, with the green Dampits, the kind violinists use. I asked *where* and he said, inside the top joint.
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Author: Dgiacobb
Date: 2012-06-09 00:48
That's actually a really good point to bring up. Humidity changes inside the clarinet are, after all, what cause these things to happen.
I'm just grateful for the guys down at Buffet in Jacksonville. They're doing everything to make this as easy as possible for me! It's truly a blessing.
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Author: Jack Kissinger
Date: 2012-06-09 01:19
Jack H.,
Let me get this straight. You bought a brand new clarinet with a crack from a dealer at full dealer price?
Best regards,
jnk
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Author: JHowell
Date: 2012-06-09 05:08
Sorry, I thought I was clear. Batch of R13 B flats. One was superb, but cracked. The dealer would either sell it for the same price as the others, or send it back to Buffet. No in between. As I said, I never regretted it, it was an excellent instrument. Won a couple of auditions with it. The crack was through the register hole -- didn't need a tone hole insert. Had it pinned, never gave it another thought.
I understand about money; I'm certainly not rich. But what a clarinet costs, while not irrelevant, concerns me far less than how it plays. I've had a handful of horns crack over the years, and they all played fine when repaired. I've played colleagues' cracked horns that I would cheerfully have bought, cracks and all, had they been for sale. So it's a matter of priorities. I wouldn't let a superficial flaw, or a few hundred bucks, chase me away from a superior instrument. But if others would choose differently, good on 'em. It's quite possible that my clarinet was still in the pile because others had passed on it because it was cracked.
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Author: Jack Kissinger
Date: 2012-06-09 16:28
OK, Jack. Thank you for the clarification. It sounds like. in that case, you and the dealer both won. The instrument played so well for you at the time that you were willing to take on additional risk without monetary compensation. Then, the risk didn't materialize. You mention that you played the clarinet for several years. Would you be willing to share what happened then?
I notice you mention that, while you were willing to pay the same for the clarinet with or without the crack, others might not be. I think, if you compare prices on eBay for clarinets that are similar in age and condition, except that one has cracked, you will find the cracked clarinets generally sell for less, often considerably less than their undamaged "partner." Most buyers expect a discount for the added risk they are taking on. Of course, on eBay, the risk is magnified because the buyer has no opportunity to try the instrument until it has been shipped to them. In a local sale, though, a seller has to find a way to attract buyers to try their clarinet and listing it as cracked is not a plus. Interestingly, the dealer that sold you the clarinet did have a way to attract you to try the clarinet in the first place -- the other clarinets he had in stock. Most individuals selling an instrument don't have that capability. In his original post, Dan specifically said his criterion was the better "option to keep the price on the horn." Whether or not that's the right criterion in his case, is a separate issue.
Whenever a question like this comes up on the Board, there are always respondents who warn that the replacement may not play nearly as well as the original. I don't recall seeing a lot of complaints from clarinetists who went the replacement route. Maybe they're out there but I haven't seen them. To me, these comments seem fear-based. If the manufacturer can build a good clarinet in the first place, why can't it build a good replacement part? Is there statistical evidence to the contrary?
Jmsa writes:
"Most of the newer instruments crack due to improper aging of the wood and premature harvesting and then kiln treated to complete the process."
I'm not sure what you're saying here. Do you mean that most new clarinets crack? According to Ken Shaw in a recent post, Buffet has been manufacturing around 17,000 professional clarinets each year. Are you saying that over half of these are cracking? Do you have hard evidence to support that statement?
Or are you saying that, of the clarinets that do crack, most are cracking due to the change in treatment of the wood? If that's your claim, again what evidence do you have? Can you cite statistics that demonstrate a significant increase in the percentage of clarinets cracking since the process changed. Even if there has been an increase, are you sure there aren't other possible causes. It sounds like "post hoc ergo propter hoc" reasoning to me... and you haven't even proven the "post hoc" part yet.
Best regards,
jnk
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Author: Dgiacobb
Date: 2012-06-09 20:14
Jack,
Your response is really quite sound. It's very logical, and that actually helped me a lot. You're right that much of my speculation about getting a new upper joint is based off of fear, as opposed to some incident in the past.
I have a feeling that, as much as I have gotten out of my horn over the past year +, it may be time to trust the folks down in Jacksonville. I'll be sure to add an update once everything is settled - whatever that may be!
Thanks, again,
Dan
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