 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: lizholt
Date: 2012-04-18 12:35
Hi all,
I've just become the proud owner of a clarinet owned and played by 'Jumping' Jack Gilbert. I bought it from an old pupil of his, who bought the instrument from him in the 1980s. The case has several old stickers from various Jazz clubs in Europe.
It's a lovely dense grained grenadilla wood, but the main joints have no markings on them other than 'MADE IN FRANCE' faintly engraved at the top of the upper joint, and the serial number 5477C on both joints. The seller said it's a Selmer, and the barrel is clearly marked Selmer Paris 9. The rings on this barrel perfectly match all the tenon rings in profile and pattern. It also has a very long G# spatula.
I will try and take some photos. Can anyone please enlighten me as to whether this is actually a Selmer, and if so, what model and age it's likely to be?
Thanks
Post Edited (2012-04-20 13:27)
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2012-04-18 13:25
Selmer serial munbers are usually numbers only for the earlier ones and then a letter prefix followed by a number (eg. K1234) but they never had a number with a suffix as the 5477C one you've got. If it was C5477 then that would date it to somewhere around the mid '80s.
There were some Selmers made with just the logo and no model name (I've got a set of Series 9* clarinets without the Series 9* logo) and some made before the Centered Tone didn't carry the model name, but didn't have 'Made in France' on the top joint (as 'France' was engraved below the logo) - it was usually stamped lightly on the barrel by the lower socket ring and on the bell either some distance below the logo or on the back just below the socket ring.
The barrel is a Series 9 barrel if it only has the number 9 below the logo - the Series 9* barrels had a star below the logo. Centered Tones and others before didn't have anything else stamped on the barrel apart from the Selmer logo and sometimes the 'Made in France' by the lower socket ring.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: lizholt
Date: 2012-04-18 17:13
Thanks Chris.
The serial number is definitely a 'C' suffix. I guess it's probably not a Selmer then, unless it's some sort of obscure very early model. Jack was playing with the Max Collie band in the '70's, and the stickers on the case include some from a Jazz club and a festival in 1972 and 1976. So unless he stuck these onto the case some time later, it's pre-80s. The seller says she bought it off him in the 1980s. Jack sadly died in 2002.
Here's a link to a Youtube video of 'Jumping' Jack Gilbert playing in 1978. I wonder if this is the same clarinet?!
http://youtu.be/iGxiMan9ejA
The clarinet has certainly been around, and the seller said it's been played with some prestigious people. The quality of the wood and the way it's been looked after suggests it's a very nice clarinet, but haven't had a chance to try it out yet as I have a sick grandchild in the house who needs quiet!
The barrel is definitely a Selmer series 9, no star on it, just the Selmer Paris logo and a number 9, but it could well have been added to another clarinet. No marks discernible on the bell either. It seems strange, though, that the socket rings all match with the rings on the barrel - perhaps that's just a generic pattern though.
When the battery's charged on my camera I'll try and upload some photos.
Alison.
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Author: lizholt
Date: 2012-04-20 13:12
Finally managed to get some photos uploaded to my computer.
I've been doing a bit of digging around the various chat boards etc, and wonder now if it's some sort of unmarked Couesnon, or a French stencil made by Couesnon? Did Couesnon ever make unmarked stencils, or is it possible that the maker's mark has come off with age?
There seem to be some distinctive traits apparently found on old Couesnon clarinets:
1. The left hand 'pinkie' keys share a single pivot rod.
2. Left hand pinkie mechanisms are 'peg in hole' type.
3. 3 posts, one shared, for the A and G# keys.
4. Thumbrest seems typical,- 'one up, one down' screws.
5. Triangular sheet-metal type guide for upper trill keys.
Also, there is no adjust screw in the G# key, and an enormously long G# key.
I've now had a tentative play, and it sounds beautiful, a rich smooth sound. The wood is in immaculate condition, very close grained and black, and feels like silk. The keys are also in good looking condition, and seem to be silver plated (Virgin Silvo goes black when rubbed gently, which definitely didn't happen on the nickel siler keys of several Buffet B12s I've cleaned up lately.)
I'm not a good player, got up to just Grade 5 in my early years, but am hoping to try and relearn, and would love to be able to play some Jazz.
Anyway, hopefully some photos attached if anyone can suggest any answers.
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Author: lizholt
Date: 2012-04-20 13:28
Sorry, can't get photos to upload!
Post Edited (2012-04-20 13:37)
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Author: chris moffatt
Date: 2012-04-20 19:31
A large part of Couesnon's business was making stencils. Sounds from the description it could be an unmarked couesnon. It might also be a Buffet. OTOH given the serial number, which doesn't seem to be either Buffet or Couesnon AFAIK, it's maybe some other of the many small manufacturers who will hard to identify. As for the age of the horn I'd say early 1900s to mid-1930s, my preference being for the latter part of that range since you didn't mention a wrap-around speaker key.
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Author: lizholt
Date: 2012-04-21 08:47
Thanks Chris,
no. it's a 'normal' speaker key, not wrap-around. So I suppose that's probably as close as I'll ever get to identifying it - a prob 1920s - 30s Couesnon stencil, unless somebody who knew Jack Gilbert can enlighten me any further.
I've tried twice to upload some photos, but not having any luck so far.
It just seems very nice, especially with the silver plated keys, the quality of the wood, and the lovely rich tone, and I don't ever intend to sell it.
I just need to start learning properly now!
Regards
Alison
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Author: Tony Pay ★2017
Date: 2012-04-21 11:00
I hadn't intended to post on this subject; I was just reminding myself how to attach jpegs to posts, but my trial somehow got sent.
But, since I'm here: Alison, have you got your photos saved on your computer? Are you then clicking on 'add attachment' at the bottom of the post you're writing? (You do need to enter some text, by the way.)
You should then get a series of buttons that allow you to select any file that's on your computer, and it will appear as a clickable link at the top of your post when you've sent it.
Tony
Post Edited (2012-04-21 11:10)
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Author: lizholt
Date: 2013-03-02 17:21
Hi, I'd forgotten about this thread! But I still hace the photos of this clarinet on my computer, so will try and add them following Tony's help, and see if anyone can come up with any ideas.
I haven't really played this clarinet properly yet. I've been enjoying learning how to restore Selmers generally, and have done a few Centred Tones quite successfully. I've also acquired a Balanced Tone, a K-series, and a pre-R13 Buffet which I'm about to start on.
Here are the photos:
Alison
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Author: Arnoldstang
Date: 2013-03-03 18:26
I think classical clarinetists should use names like 'Jumping Jack Gilbert'. It just sounds so good.
Freelance woodwind performer
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Author: Tony F
Date: 2013-03-03 23:05
Quote
"1. The left hand 'pinkie' keys share a single pivot rod.
2. Left hand pinkie mechanisms are 'peg in hole' type.
3. 3 posts, one shared, for the A and G# keys.
4. Thumbrest seems typical,- 'one up, one down' screws.
5. Triangular sheet-metal type guide for upper trill keys."
This description exactly fits my Jerome Thibouville Lamy clarinet from early 20th Century. Thibouville were a very large manufacturer and made clarinets for a lot of "re-labellers" who sold them as their own. Sounds like you may have one.
Tony F.
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Author: Tony F
Date: 2013-03-03 23:10
Quote
"1. The left hand 'pinkie' keys share a single pivot rod.
2. Left hand pinkie mechanisms are 'peg in hole' type.
3. 3 posts, one shared, for the A and G# keys.
4. Thumbrest seems typical,- 'one up, one down' screws.
5. Triangular sheet-metal type guide for upper trill keys."
This description exactly fits my Jerome Thibouville Lamy clarinet from early 20th Century. Thibouville were a very large manufacturer and made clarinets for a lot of "re-labellers" who sold them as their own. Sounds like you may have one. Mine also sounds superb.
Tony F.
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Author: lizholt
Date: 2015-12-06 17:21
Jump a few years, and I've just come across this thread again! I still have this clarinet, am looking after it carefully, although family illnesses etc have prevented me properly trying to learn again. I've just picked up my tools and finished a lovely Selmer 10s, and was looking on here for any info that might help me date it (it has an F**** serial number).
But I do still have the photos of Jumping Jack's clarinet, so will try yet again to upload. Thank you, Tony, for your information - we might be getting closer to identification of the manufacturer as a possible Jerome Thibouville Lamy.
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Author: pete_hirst@hotmail.co.uk
Date: 2019-07-19 02:12
Hi
Jack was my Great Uncle, if it isn't too much trouble would you mind taking some pictures? I would love to see some images
Best Regards, Peter
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Author: lizholt
Date: 2020-10-26 20:44
Hi Peter,
I've just seen your message on here, after just returning to this board for the first time in a few years! How lovely to have Jack as your Great Uncle. I still have his clarinet - I'll try and attach some photos now. I still haven't got any closer to identifying the maker, although some clarinet restorers are now suggesting that it could be a pre-war Martel Freres instrument, or a Thibouville. Probably 1920s to 1930s, it's made of very good wood, and is still in excellent condition.
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