 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: barisax
Date: 2012-04-14 20:19
I currently have a penzel mueller artist wood clarinet. serial number is 14501, ther horn is in very good shape, no cracks only one pad needs replaced and all pieces match the serialization and have the penzel mueller stamp. does anyone have any information on this instrument and possibly any idea of the value of this horn? This horn plays very well and has a great sound. thank you for any information.
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Author: SteveG_CT
Date: 2012-04-14 21:34
barisax wrote:
> I currently have a penzel mueller artist wood clarinet. serial
> number is 14501, ther horn is in very good shape, no cracks
> only one pad needs replaced and all pieces match the
> serialization and have the penzel mueller stamp. does anyone
> have any information on this instrument and possibly any idea
> of the value of this horn? This horn plays very well and has a
> great sound. thank you for any information.
You have one of the earlier P-M Artist clarinets. The early ones have "Artist" written in small script and serial number containing only numbers. I believe these were P-M's professional model at the time. Later on the Artist model became an intermediate model (Brilliante became the pro model) and had serial numbers starting with "M"
The monetary value unfortunately is not very high. Assuming this is your basic 17 key, 6 ring clarinet it is probably worth ~$100 in as-is condition and perhaps ~$400 freshly overhauled (assuming the wood and plating are in good shape). If it has extra keywork (forked Eb, articulated C#) it might be worth a bit more but not very much.
Penzel-Mueller was probably the best of the American clarinet makers and made a lot of good instruments. Unfortunately with the possible exception of the Clari-Met there isn't a huge demand for them on the used market. It's kind of a shame as I firmly believe that a good P-M clarinet made in the 1920's-1940's can play just as well as most French clarinets from the same time period.
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Author: Ursa
Date: 2012-04-14 22:00
What SteveG said. Since your P-M Artist plays very well and sounds great, treasure and cherish the instrument for what it is.
I keep waiting for the uninformed masses to rediscover Penzel-Mueller and Pruefer instruments, some (but not all) of which can be quite good. Until then, those of us who do appreciate them can score decent clarinets for under US$100.
Cheers,
Ursa
Pruefer Festival--Boosey & Hawkes 8-10--Ridenour RCP-576BC
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Author: barisax
Date: 2012-04-15 00:32
thank you for your information. from what I've been able to find out so far is this does have the B marking, one person believes that this may indicate it was a military professional model. all information I've been able to find so far does indicate that the artist model was one of the best P M made. also looked on ebay for prices and found more than a few P M clarinets going for well over the $100 mark the artist by around 900.
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Author: Tony F
Date: 2012-04-15 01:05
A while back I restored a P-M Artist. It needed some work when I bought it on EBay for around $A85, but after a repad and recork it played very well indeed. The wood was a lot better than is commonly found on new instruments today.
Tony F.
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Author: SteveG_CT
Date: 2012-04-15 01:34
barisax wrote:
> thank you for your information. from what I've been able to
> find out so far is this does have the B marking, one person
> believes that this may indicate it was a military professional
> model. all information I've been able to find so far does
> indicate that the artist model was one of the best P M made.
> also looked on ebay for prices and found more than a few P M
> clarinets going for well over the $100 mark the artist by
> around 900.
Most P-M clarinets were marked "B" just above the P-M logo. This just signifies that it is a Bb clarinet. Many German clarinets are also marked this way. P-M clarinets that were sold to the military are generally clearly marked with the branch of service (USA, USN, USQMC, etc.). I have a P-M Artist that was owned by one of the Navy bands and every piece is stamped "USN".
I wouldn't read too much into ebay prices. You have to look not just at what the sellers are asking but what the instruments are actually selling for. Recently there have been a few people listing P-M clarinets at stupidly high prices. There is a reason why most of these have been re-listed several times and still haven't sold. The only P-M clarinet that might reasonably approach the $1000 mark would be the Clari-Met and that's mainly because they are exceedingly rare and desirable (among the best metal clarinets ever made by anyone).
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2012-04-15 05:38
I had a different experience from the other posters... from what I remember I've tried three Penzel Mueller clarinets, two made of metal and one made of wood, all were the Artist model.
They all had a pretty nice tone for most of the range and relatively comfortable keys. Unfortunately I found many issues with them.
- The keys were all some of the softest I've seen, soft enough that I considered it an issue.
- The tone was mostly good, but several notes stuffy and uneven in tone and response.
- Some of the linkages had a bad design.
- More than a few issues with the mechanical design and build quality.
- The metal clarinets had some sharp and burry tone holes (maybe not original).
- Both metal and wood tone holes were unlevel.
- The low E and F (and to much less degree middle B and C) were very low. A vent hole can help but I found its exact size and location to be extremely important and at best, comes with other compromises.
- In general intonation had a few quirks.
There were probably more issues I forget now. Sorry that my "review" is not so positive. Personally I would rather play a current decent student model.
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Author: SteveG_CT
Date: 2012-04-15 06:21
clarnibass wrote:
> They all had a pretty nice tone for most of the range and
> relatively comfortable keys. Unfortunately I found many issues
> with them.
I suspect you may have had some of the post-war examples. From what I have seen (I own about a dozen P-M clarinets) the earlier ones are significantly better in terms of playing quality and construction. After the war it seems that P-M started cutting corners, likely in an effort to compete with the much cheaper European labor costs at the time, and the quality of the instruments suffered.
When I compare my pre-war P-M Artist model (numeric serial #) to my post war Artist model ("M" serial#) it is hard to believe they were made by the same company much less that they are the same model.
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Author: vintschevski
Date: 2012-04-15 11:57
Hello!
This is really a question for Tony Fairbridge - so I hope he continues to read this thread. But I know that he has done a lot of work on restoring older clarinets like the Penzel-Mueller Artist, so I'd like to ask: Tony, have you restored other PM models? How did you find that they compared? Was the Artist the best? And if you've restored other American clarinets like the Pruefers (I think you have) and maybe the Bettoneys, how were they?
Cheers!
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Author: Tony F
Date: 2012-04-15 14:08
"Author: vintschevski (---.szxk1.cha.bigpond.net.au - (Telstra Internet) Brisbane, 04 Australia)
Date: 2012-04-15 11:57
Hello!
This is really a question for Tony Fairbridge - so I hope he continues to read this thread. But I know that he has done a lot of work on restoring older clarinets like the Penzel-Mueller Artist, so I'd like to ask: Tony, have you restored other PM models? How did you find that they compared? Was the Artist the best? And if you've restored other American clarinets like the Pruefers (I think you have) and maybe the Bettoneys, how were they?
Cheers!"
Hi,
I've done a few P-M clarinets. Most were the Artist model, and generally that is the model that shows the best build quality and performance. I've generally done older examples, so I can't really speak about the later ones. That being said, I have in front of me a later P-M Artist which is a sorry piece of work. The upper joint is pinned, the keywork appears to be made of old wheel weights, the rings are loose and the tenons are rotted. Hardly worth the effort of pulling it apart.
I've done a couple of Preufers and they generally came up OK. I have a hard rubber monobody Bb on my "To do" pile. I've also done a couple of Conns which came up OK, although the intonation wasn't all that it could be.
Never worked on a Bettoney, in fact I've never even seen one. All in all, the older American clarinets from the major manufacturers I've worked on have been a pretty mixed bag. The good ones can be very good indeed, the bad ones can be rubbish. The American Selmers are usually OK, and most of the American plastic student instruments are pretty good value.
Older American clarinets are fairly thin on the ground here in Australia, so I don't see as many of them as do most US restorers. Mostly I work on European and British instruments. I only do it as a retirement hobby, so I don't see as many horns as a professional repairer/restorer.
Tony F.
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Author: vintschevski
Date: 2012-04-16 09:54
Thanks for that, Tony F. I have a Pruefer monobody somewhere, too - can't remember how it plays, so I'll have to find it and try it out again.
Tony, could I possibly contact you privately - or could you perhaps send me an email (my address is on my profile)?
Cheers again!
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Author: Ursa
Date: 2012-04-16 19:01
Re: Pruefer unibody clarinets
I have two of these; one is fully restored and is a fine player. Both are the Festival model; hard rubber bodies with a brass sleeve in the bore that runs down to the lowest ring key, with plastic barrels and bells.
The nickel-silver keywork on the restored example, which has a serial in the 69000 range, is quite comfortable, notably responsive and very solid-feeling under the fingers; tuning is generally accurate, and it's the loudest clarinet I've ever played--perfect for outdoors gigs, which is where I use mine.
The unrestored example, with a serial number in the 58000 range, has the same body design but the keywork is brass, not nickel silver, and very thinly plated. The keywork is pitted, porous, and flimsy-feeling throughout, much of the plating has worn through, and many of the keys are slightly bent. It's...junk, a parts horn for the other at best.
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Author: SteveG_CT
Date: 2012-04-16 19:13
Ursa wrote:
>> The unrestored example, with a serial number in the 58000
> range, has the same body design but the keywork is brass, not
> nickel silver, and very thinly plated.
Interesting that the quality was better on the later one. Perhaps this is why Pruefer was among the last of the independent American woodwind manufacturers to close down. IIRC they were still making clarinets into the 1970's when their factory burned down.
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Author: Ursa
Date: 2012-04-16 19:40
Steve, the quality difference between the two is night and day. Hard to believe they're the same model from the same maker. The later Festival came to me with beautiful red leather pads--most of which likely didn't need replacement-- and pristine blue-steel springs. The flat springs on the instrument appear to be stainless and are also corrosion-free. The keywork has a certain Buffet-like snappiness and precision to it. If Pruefer had made all their stuff to this level, perhaps they would be a going concern today.
Post Edited (2012-04-16 19:44)
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Author: vintschevski
Date: 2012-04-17 14:42
Hi, David S.!
Can you please give us an idea of what year that full-Boehm PM Artist is from? Or at least an indication of the serial number?
And was it a fabulous clarinet before you worked on it as well as after? Which is to say, is it only fabulous, in part at least, because of improvements that you might have made to it?
Thanks!!
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2012-04-17 16:07
G'day vintschevski! I'll check for a serial number and report back to the board later (I'm at work right now and the clarinet is at home). I have no idea when my P-M was manufactured. Although I'd like to take credit for its wonderfulness, I can't, because all I did was perform a standard overhaul (using my usual leather pads) and a bit of keywork tweaking to make it more comfortable for my clumsy fat fingers and lousy hand positions. The clarinet just inherently plays really well, nice sound and excellent intonation with no response issues anywhere.
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2012-04-18 09:58
>> I suspect you may have had some of the post-war examples. <<
I don't know for sure but I think all the ones I've tried were from around the 50s.
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Author: vintschevski
Date: 2012-04-19 11:33
Thanks, David S., for that information. Interesting - all my standard PM models have a letter before the serial number.
Will this Artist Full Boehm remain your number one soprano clarinet? Is it THAT good? Or do you rotate your clarinets, playing a Thibouville-Lamy when the mood takes you, and then a Jacques Robert, maybe a Kohlert und Soehne (Graslitz or maybe even a Paris) for a while?
Light-hearted as this question may seem to be expressed, it's actually quite serious and I would value your comments since you have played so many different vintage models. For the purpose of the thread, I guess I'm asking about your estimation of the comparative quality of your PM Full-Boehm Artist.
Thanks so much!!
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2012-04-19 12:31
Signor v: Like the little old lady in the shoe, I have so many clarinets I don't know what to do. And to make matters worst, most of my classical playing (generally unpaid) is on BASS clarinet with the Bb/A/C/Eb sopranos as doubles; while most of my paid playing (jazz, rock, etc.) is on various sizes of saxophones. Further complicating things is that I'm playing Oehler-system clarinets (bass and Bb sopranos) more and more, about as often as the corresponding Boehm-system instruments. So time-wise I don't actually play very much Boehm-system Bb soprano clarinet, but when I do, lately I play the full-Boehm P-M more often than the others I've got. I hope that is a suitably complex answer to your simple and straightforward question!
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Author: Bill
Date: 2012-06-23 23:47
I had an unexpected correspondence with a woman naed Lisa Mueller-Gannon (memory might be a bit flawed) who was the granddaughter of the Muellers. I agree that P-M's best work was before WWII. I had a circa 1955 "Brilliante" and I thought it was a quite poor clarinet (even well restored). But the case came with an adjustment screwdriver I still have, and it was covered in genuine alligator hide. A lovely thing. Two barrels. Top of the line accessories. But the horn was excessively light, and it played terribly.
I imagine before WWII they were a great firm, and, of course, the mouthpieces bearing their name (the truly old ones) are among the finest vintage pieces you can obtain.
Bill Fogle
Ellsworth, Maine
(formerly Washington, DC)
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Author: SteveG_CT
Date: 2012-06-24 02:08
Bill wrote:
> I imagine before WWII they were a great firm, and, of course,
> the mouthpieces bearing their name (the truly old ones) are
> among the finest vintage pieces you can obtain.
>
Sadly most of the American instrument makers went downhill fairly quickly after WWII. At the time European labor was much less expensive and the American makers had to cut corners on quality in order to stay competitive on cost. By the time the mid-50's came around I don't think you could buy an American made clarinet that could truly be considered a professional quality instrument by the standards of the day.
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Author: bradfordlloyd
Date: 2012-06-24 16:27
I have a few P-M horns and generally agree that the older ones (generally Artist models from the 1920s and 30s) are excellent.
A few of the newer ones, however, aren't quite as good....in fact, one of them is clearly a French stencil! I was shocked that this famously American company would have one of its flagship horns made "over there"....
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