 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: panther2
Date: 2012-04-14 23:40
Im working on this etude and it's in 3/4, but it's grouped in 2 and I feel like it should be played in 6/8. Its straight 8th notes throughout but they're grouped like if it were in 6/8. Could this be a typo? Or am I just over thinking this?
It's hard to explain without showing the music. I'll do my best.
alrighty, so a regular, simple meter 3/4 would be grouped as such, am I right?
0= an eighth note I=bar line
3/4 00 00 00 I 00 00 00 I 00 00 00
but my etude reads like this: 3/4 000 000 I 000 000 I 000 000 I
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Author: Tobin
Date: 2012-04-14 23:47
So the eighths are grouped in sets of three despite the fact that 3/4 almost always requires sets of two?
Then as you are relating it you are correct: the meter is 6/8.
James
Gnothi Seauton
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Author: DNBoone
Date: 2012-04-14 23:50
I don't think it is a typo. Often in a piece of 3/4 a few measures may be grouped in 000 000 rather than 00 00 00 to "change it up." The Etude is probably to get you use to this feeling.
Conversely, composers also write 00 00 00 in 6/8 time occasionally.
It might help to know what Etude it is.
Think "America" from West Side Story.
Post Edited (2012-04-14 23:52)
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Author: panther2
Date: 2012-04-14 23:53
It's #12 from the perier etude book.
If it's not a typo, would It just be played like as if it were in 6/8? Having that 6/8 triplet feel?
Post Edited (2012-04-14 23:54)
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Author: Tobin
Date: 2012-04-14 23:53
DNBoone,
Isolated hemiolas notwithstanding, I think those juxtapositions are very rare. The 00 00 00 in 6/8 is remarkably rare (Mendelssohn Scherzo being one of the most famous).
It is a good question though -- are all the measures 000 000?
James
Gnothi Seauton
Post Edited (2012-04-14 23:55)
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Author: DNBoone
Date: 2012-04-14 23:58
Perhaps it is because I play a lot of modern music but I don't find them very rare. I come across them quite often.
I don't know the Etude in question but would figure that an etude to such an affect would be to get someone into the ability to play them. Maybe someone who knows the etude will chime in.
I wouldn't think you would play it with a 6/8 feel if it is marked 3/4. I would assume that you turn your metronome on 3/4 and you play the
000 000
grouping against it.
Post Edited (2012-04-15 00:00)
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Author: panther2
Date: 2012-04-15 00:05
hmm, it just doesn't seem natural! It's rather awkward. Is there any point in grouping it this way? It's like this ( 000 000) throughout the whole etude, its rather difficult to NOT play it with a 6/8 feel
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Author: Tobin
Date: 2012-04-15 00:10
Recognize first that meter and time signature are closely related but not always the same.
If the notes are grouped as you describe and the piece is a solo etude then the piece IS in 6/8 regardless of the notation. If there was an accompaniment that emphasized the standard three beats of 3/4 it would be an extended exercise in hemiola (as DNBoone suggests).
James
Gnothi Seauton
Post Edited (2012-04-15 00:11)
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Author: genekeyes ★2017
Date: 2012-04-15 02:51
assuming the composer wrote what he intended and wanted it played in three as written, I would place a secondary accent on the upbeat of two, 1&2 &3&. Don't know why he would choose to write I that way but that's how I would read it.
Post Edited (2012-04-15 02:55)
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2012-04-15 14:09
panther2 -
Which etude are you working on? If it's not a standard one, please scan the first page and attach it to a message. It's almost impossible to say much without seeing the music.
Ken Shaw
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Author: cigleris
Date: 2012-04-15 18:06
How about you keep the quaver pluse the same regardless of the grouping? That way you'll be able to feel the rythmic change.
Peter Cigleris
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Author: kdk
Date: 2012-04-15 18:52
He said earlier it was "#12 from the perier etude book." But I for one don't have access to the book, so I'd second the request to see a scan of the etude.
Errors sometimes *do* happen in the publishing industry. It's possible (though maybe not likely) that either the meter signature or the beaming of the eighth notes was an editorial blunder and not intended by Perier.
Karl
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2012-04-15 21:24
When I do that in Lilypond, and have a 3/4 time, and write 6 eighths, then I get groups of three, unless I override the automatic beaming mechanism. I should try that again with different note patterns and see if it changes.
And sometimes, a 3/4 does not automatically mean "waltz this!", so depending on the melody, groups of three might make more sense than groups of two.
--
Ben
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Author: donald
Date: 2012-04-16 00:05
Often the quavers/eighths are beamed in groups of three IF preceeded or followed by a dotted crotchet/quarter... I don't know if this is the case in this study, but it can make 3/4 time look like 6/8 (the first bar of the slow mvt, Mozart Quintet, is beamed this way in all my versions of this piece)
dn
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Author: JonTheReeds
Date: 2012-04-16 14:49
Could it be similar to quavers in 6/8 time but with an accent on the 1st, 3rd and 5th notes? It gives an undulating feeling, not unlike being in a boat
--------------------------------------
The older I get, the better I was
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Author: clarinetist04
Date: 2012-04-16 16:07
Follow the phrasing notated and that feels correct. We can't analyze the "feel" of it without knowing the articulations, phrasing, slurring, dynamics, accents, etc. Gotta see that scan!
e.g., If it's grouped in three, despite the 3/4, and it's slurred over two bars with, say a crescendo in bar 1 and a decrescendo in bar 2, if you're pulsating it at all regardless of the beaming, it's probably not musically correct (this is obviously a gross generalization).
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Author: kdk
Date: 2012-04-16 16:32
All of the speculation may be valid or not - we'd really need to see what's actually printed. If the OP isn't able to scan it, are these etudes available anywhere online? Not on IMSLP.
Karl
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2012-04-16 16:44
The opening movement of Schubert's 8th is a similar one for this 3/4-6/8 thing - the basses are playing what feels more like a 6/8 pattern (dotted crotchet followed by three quavers)while the higher strings are playing six quaver beats to the bar (or 12 semiquavers) and the unison flute, oboe and clarinet are playing the melody in 3/4 so it's one of those where you have to keep the 3/4 feel in the tune even though you're being drawn by the accompaniment to play it as 6/8. But it's easier to get the feel while you're playing it than when you're hearing it.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Tobin
Date: 2012-04-16 16:55
Hi Karl -- I looked on IMSLP as well, to no avail.
Chris -- I would think of that as an example of a hemiola. That requires the context of all the elements you described to create.
Within a monophonic line a hemiola can be created after a context has been established: Several measure of 00 00 00 followed by 000 000 or vice versa.
But if the music has been accurately described by the OP (every single measure being 000 000) then it is in 6/8 regardless of whether the printed time signature is 3/4 or not.
I agree with many above that seeing it (or hearing it) would help considerably!
James
Gnothi Seauton
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Author: cigleris
Date: 2012-04-17 18:39
The problem here is that the OP hasn't given the full title of the study book. There are several Perier study books.
Peter Cigleris
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