 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: tayemlo
Date: 2012-03-22 00:57
Ive heard rumors milling around from a couple scorces that Buffet is planning to release a new tosca bass clarinet in the near future. Has anyone else heard such a thing, if so when will it be released? Thanks.
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Author: Blake Arrington
Date: 2012-03-26 03:01
A friend played on the bass clarinetist in the Orchestra Nationale de France (sp?) horn while performing with them. He was playing on the prototype. At the time it was the 1193 body with the new Tosca bore. He did not have his personal mouthpiece and reeds with him and only played on Volta's setup. He said it felt like the Tosca sopranos feel as compared to the R13 sopranos.
No clue on release date or what they have done to the keywork.
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2012-03-26 22:31
So what is the difference in playing feel between Tosca sopranos and R13 sopranos?
Ken Shaw
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Author: JJAlbrecht
Date: 2012-03-27 00:29
About $4K.
Jeff
“Everyone discovers their own way of destroying themselves, and some people choose the clarinet.” Kalman Opperman, 1919-2010
"A drummer is a musician's best friend."
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Author: Danny Boy
Date: 2012-03-27 11:33
The (implied) anti-tosca feeling on this board is becoming akin to those people who dislike Apple products.
I play Toscas - I play them purely because of what I played when searching for a new clarinet, the particular Toscas I tried felt better to me than anything else.
They do feel different - both in terms of keyword feel and in terms of the way the sound is produced - to an R13 (which I played for ten years or so before buying the Toscas).
The ergonomic side keys (for me) make the use of SK3 Bb much more practical in many more situations and the 'flatness' of the bottom two side keys makes the 2SK F sharp fingering better for me. I like the feel of the register key more thanks to its kidney shape.
I've played many Toscas - and the vast majority have a particularly fine transition into the altissimo register. From clarion (thumb) C up to C sharp or D is extremely easy to achieve smoothly. These are a few examples of many little things that make the Tosca my clarinet of choice.
But - much with Apple products - Tosca users use them, because we like them more than other clarinets. I understand that not everyone likes the Tosca, but the idea that Tosca users are automatically hype-following millionaires without a discerning eye is absurd (and I realise that hasn't been stated in this thread - it just seems to be have been insinuated a few too many times on this board in recent months, and I'm sounding off).
I welcome the introduction of a Tosca bass - I'm presently in the market to replace my ageing Buffet RC Prestige bass, so will hold off until the Tosca bass arrives with us so that I can try and compare it to other models.
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2012-03-27 16:35
My orchestra standmate (the 2nd clarinetist, I usually play bass) bought an expensive Bb/A pair of new Toscas last year, and loves them. Personally, I can't hear an iota of difference in his sound compared to the R-13s he had previously, but what the heck, he's happy. Personally I don't have that kind of money to throw around, and if Buffet ever comes out with a Tosca bass, I'll be the first in line to NOT buy it (I prefer Selmer-Paris basses anyway).
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Author: SteveG_CT
Date: 2012-03-27 18:48
Considering how many people complain about the $10k Buffet and Selmer bass clarinets being so expensive I wonder just how many customers there will be for what will presumably be a $15k+ Tosca bass.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2012-03-28 10:29
Will the Tosca bass have a ringless bell? ![[wink]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/smilie3.gif)
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Phurster
Date: 2012-03-28 12:31
The Tosca should really be compared to the R13 Prestige. The difference in price isn't really that great.
I play on a Tosca. I think it's fantastic. I have to say (IMHO) it sounds a fair bit better using a MoBa bell. I have no idea of the acoustical reason why this should be the case.
Chris Ondaatje.
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2012-03-28 13:47
Chris, I hereby bet you that the rumored Tosca bass clarinet will have a gold-plated ringless wood bell with a "voicing groove" --- thus satisfying every possible customer wanting arcane bell design features.
I'm sure Buffet will do just as good a job gold-plating wood as they have done in the past nickel-plating their keywork.
![[toast]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/smiley15.gif)
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Author: JamesOrlandoGarcia
Date: 2012-03-28 21:42
There is something to be said about wealthy enthusiast who has gear acquisition syndrome. They do account for a significant portion of the profits being made.
The R-13 design was a great step forward sixty years ago. It makes sense though that something better will or has come along considering how far we have come technologically.
The indoctrination of young people in particular that the only clarinet that will do is the R-13 really has to stop.
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2012-03-29 04:49
>> The (implied) anti-tosca feeling on this board is becoming akin to those people who dislike Apple products....... But - much with Apple products - Tosca users use them, because we like them more than other clarinets. <<
I don't know about that comparison. Many buy iPhones etc. for no reason at all. They just want an iPhone. They don't know why, it's just because it's an iPhone. They have no idea if they prefer it, just just want it. I would link to a YouTube video, but probably a bit too much profanity for this forum...
It's not limited to silly people. There are people who are smart, telented, great at what they do, very logical and have common sense, but completely admit that they are silly in how they want an iPhone.
Of course There are people who prefer not to use Apple products for good reasons. I'm one. I have nothing against the products or the people who prefer them. I can even understand why some prefer them.
But for Tosca clarinets, I don't know anyone who just bought one for no real reason. I don't know anyone who just "hates" the Tosca or is "anti-Tosca". Every one I know who bought one is either a very good player or a high level university student (studying music) and they bought it because they liked it better than other clarinets.
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Author: Phurster
Date: 2012-03-29 05:33
Dave, to be honest if they made it and the advertising brainwashed me into believing i sound better, I'd probably buy it! Whatever it takes to get that bit better...real or imagined.
Chris.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2012-03-29 11:55
I haven't been that impressed with the finishing quality on the Toscas I've seen and worked on - considering they're an expensive top end clarinet, I expected much better.
On the Tosca basses, where are they going to fit the low E-F correction key? Below the RH D touch? That'll be some stretch!
On Buffet basses and basset horns (not sure if the same applies to altos) the G/D vent (doubled F/C key) really ought to have a much wider crown to the bedplace (with the small tonehole in the centre like on oboes) so the pad doesn't stick to it. It always sticks on my basset horn so when playing slowly and going from C-D (or low F-G) the C (or G) is slightly flat until the pad unsticks from the tonehole. Not much you can do about this while playing and I'm not alone here as other Buffet basset horn owners I know experience the same thing. It shouldn't take much to do this on all the larger clarinets that have this and it will give us peace of mind in knowing the extra pad won't stick nearly every time (and the basset horns can do with more bushed toneholes on the back of the top joint as well as they fill up with water!).
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: The_Clarinetist
Date: 2012-04-05 09:09
I am not a bass clarinet player but I really can not see the point of having three low D keys, one for LH and two for the RH. It is probably better than only two low D keys but should it not be wiser to use the spot for the RH little finger low D key for a low C or perhaps low C# key instead? To me it seems that one would be better off with two C keys and two D keys rather than just one C thumb key and three D keys. I can imagine that it has to do with production cost and simplicity. Is buffet only searching for the easiest way to make a cool looking bass clarinet with loads of keys?
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2012-04-05 09:59
There can be real advantages to the three low D keys. They help and I'm glad to have all three of them. Selmer is making a bass with two low D keys and two low Eb keys for those who prefer that arrangement. I wouldn't change one of the low D keys for a low Db key or a low C key. Others might.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2012-04-05 11:50
I find the RH (or 'front') low D key a very useful key - especially when playing large intervals such as low D to G or A as you're keeping the notes in the right hand only. The thumb low D key isn't all that well positioned on Buffets and operates on a very short lever, so I rarely use that - but it's alright for emergencies. The LH low D key is used whenever the RH is on low E or low Eb and is a very well balanced key and easy to use.
The older Selmers had the front low D touchpiece made so short that it was incredibly heavy to use, but the Prestige basses since 1999 have the long touchpiece which makes the action as light as a feather which is why I went for the Buffet bass as I liked the feel of the keywork best over the other basses from the big names. Yamaha basses don't have the front low D touch but Leblanc basses do (as well as the LH low D touch), but the low Db and C aren't linked to the rest of the mechanism on Leblancs. Ideally I like the Selmer sound but didn't like the keywork - if they made the Selmer basses back then with the well balanced mechansim on the then new Buffet Prestige, then I may have gone with the Selmer bass. But I'm perfectly happy with the Buffet and have no plans in changing it.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: The_Clarinetist
Date: 2012-04-05 12:05
I know that Stephen Fox can make a RH little finger lever (where the usual low D is) on his basset horn/clarinet and low C bass clarinet extension that is convertible between D and C# which seems really great. Anyone think that might be arranged afterwards by your local guy, lets say on a buffet prestige 1193?
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2012-04-05 12:13
That sounds possible - the low D key can be linked to the low C# key so it closes both (and can be made switchable).
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Ed Palanker
Date: 2012-04-05 15:03
I think the big problem is going someplace to try several out, most shops only carry one or two. ESP eddiesclarinet.com
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Author: The_Clarinetist
Date: 2012-04-07 16:16
How about the RH thumb mechanism? Is it possible to add a fourth key for the thumb on a buffet prestige 1193? I know amati has four thumb keys on their bass but it lacks other keys. Is there any strut near the thumb where an extra key can be fitted afterwards that buffet hasn't cared to utilize? If there is a D, Db and a C spatual, an additional Eb spatual might be convenient. But I guess the ordinary Eb linkage does not reach that high. You probably need a bass with Eb,Db and C for the thumb if you want to add any extra key. Then the D linkage for the LH little finger could be fitted with an additional little lever for the thumb on its way up to the preexisting LH little finger D lever. Any ideas?
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2012-04-07 22:47
Alan Hacker showed me his period-style basset clarinet made by Ted Planas or maybe Brian Ackerman. It had no extra little finger keys. Instead, the basset keys were in a square on the back, operated solely by the right thumb. You moved your thumb clockwise to go down and counteclockwise to go up. That layout would probably be too stiff on a BC, though.
That was in 1980, long before the discovery of the Riga program http://www.mozartforum.com/VB_forum/showthread.php?t=4715. A replica by the well-known firm of Schwenk & Seggelke shows all the basset keys on the back for the right thumb http://www.schwenk-und-seggelke.de/englisch/klarinetten_historisch.php.
Having the low D key only for the left little finger (next to the left low F key) (as on the Fox prototype and the Leblanc paperclip contras) requires jumping up to the upper level of keys. Given my choice, and if it wouldn't make the action too heavy, I'd get doubled keys for both Eb and D and thumb keys only for Db and C, as on the Planas basset horn http://www.clarinetsdirect.biz/PlanasBassetHn.html.
Ken Shaw
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2012-04-07 23:28
Selmer full Mazzeo systems and basset clarinets (A) had a LH low Eb lever next to the LH Ab/Eb lever which I haven't seen offered by any other maker - but they didn't fit it to their basset horns or basses.
I don't particularly care for the C and D series Selmer low C basses as the layout for both little finger clusters is nothing like most basses - even Selmer's own basses before and after. Their basset clarinets and basset horns have the same layout as these basses which is (minus the duplicate low Eb lever as seen on basset clarinets):
LH cluster (as you're looking at it):
(C#/G# key)
F/C/low C* - low D
E/B - F#/C# levers
(**) - Ab/Eb lever (running in between the LH levers)
* the LH F/C key operates the bell key as well, but doesn't close all the lower extension keys.
(**) the position of the LH low Eb key on full Mazzeos and basset clarinets only.
RH cluster (with the instrument laid horizontally):
Upper level: Ab/Eb - F/C - low Eb
Lower level: F#/C# - E/B - low Db
Thumb keys:
Low D
Low C
On a Buffet Prestige (1999 onwards) low C bass the LH and RH layouts are:
LH cluster:
(C#/G#)
F/C - low D
E/B - F#/C#
Ab/Eb
RH cluster:
(upper level) Ab/Eb - F/C - low D
(lower level) F#/C# - E/B - low Eb
Thumb keys:
Low D
Low Db
Low C
Yamaha low C basses also have three thumb keys for low D, Db and C as well as the LH low D lever, but no RH (or front) low D touch.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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