 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: RachelB4
Date: 2012-03-01 01:25
Soo I'm one of those people who broke the trend and bought a festival instead of an R13. I fell in love with one when I was in middle school that my teacher had me try and I was hooked. They are really amazing.
Anyways-- I bought the instrument for it's wonderful tone and response not for that extra LH Eb/Ab key. I honestly wouldn't buy the instrument for the key, but hey if it comes with it I'll take it. I find it quite helpful in those positions where you would otherwise have to pinkey slide or double finger. It is very helpful!
However my teacher/s did not/have not liked that key. When they try my clarinet they tell me it gets in the way and I should remove it when I get a chance.
Should I take them seriously or leave it? is this a common thing to do and have any of you done this?
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Author: Bob Bernardo
Date: 2012-03-01 03:39
It takes some time to get the hang of a new horn. I think you should leave it alone unless it bothers you. Don't worry about what others think. Your horn is really great.
It's sort of like learning how to play the extended "A" clarinet for pieces like the Mozat concerto - quintet. You surely wouldn't take those keys off, yet you need to get the hang of the extra weight and the extra keys.
Please leave the key alone. "Begging!"
Designer of - Vintage 1940 Cicero Mouthpieces and the La Vecchia mouthpieces
Yamaha Artist 2015
Post Edited (2012-03-03 23:07)
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2012-03-01 04:36
If it's there, use it!
Just because some others may not have this key fitted to their clarinets doesn't mean you shouldn't use it if it's fitted to yours.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: JamesOrlandoGarcia
Date: 2012-03-01 04:55
Keep the key on. You'll adjust to it. A little time with a good scale book should do the trick. I just went through a few concerti and orchestral excerpts where it is simply more comfortable and enjoyable to have the eb key.
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Author: mvjohnso
Date: 2012-03-01 07:44
Keep it on. Mine is currently broken (word of the wise: if you don't already grab your lower joint from the bottom as you are less likely to break something (2 reasons: (1) the plastic rods that lift the 3 mechanisms for the 3 of the 4 left hand keys are made of plastic and will break, it is the single worst design flaw of the horn; (2) the actual welded connection between the lever and the screw housing is probably the weakest permanent metal to metal connection)), I miss it a lot. It does take getting used to, but it is worth it Not just for the impossible passages; the freedom it allows you, especially while sight reading, is invaluable (one less thing to worry about).
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Author: davyd
Date: 2012-03-01 13:01
Perhaps the teachers are envious that Rachel's instrument has a feature that theirs don't have?
Is removing a key a trivial operation? What collateral damage can result if that's done?
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Author: RachelB4
Date: 2012-03-01 14:47
thanks everyone! I've had this clarinet for almost 4 years now. And recently bought an A. I've really integrated the key into my playing. It helps to see I'm not the only one who thinks the key should be left on. Thanks!
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Author: MarlboroughMan
Date: 2012-03-01 15:40
Here's a little exercise: Play through No 4 in Baermann's Third Division ("Interrupted Scales"). You'll find that the left hand Eb is essential for many of these (if you want to play them smoothly at fast tempi). Many clarinetists just sound clumsy on these passages, but you don't have to!
Once you've worked through these, you'll find other applications in the repertoire (Brahms Sonatas for instance).
Eric
******************************
The Jazz Clarinet
http://thejazzclarinet.blogspot.com/
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Author: John Peacock
Date: 2012-03-01 16:06
My vote is to do without it. This is partly because I think the risk of hitting it by accident is high enough that it outweighs the advantage of having it when you want to use it. But actually, the main point is aesthetic: it just makes an instrument look ugly, with too much metal on one side. The basic Klose design is marvelously simple and elegant - compare with the mess that is an Oboe keywork. People have tried extra bells and whistles over the years (forked Eb, or articulated G#), but they never took root, and I'm glad. You can make the mechanism more complicated without limit, and while I certainly wouldn't want to go back to the simple system, part of the joy of the clarinet is learning to cope with the quirks of a mechanism that delivers so much from so little metal. I think the vanilla design is basically the sweet spot, and I wouldn't tinker with it.
And all the above applies to the horrible F correction key on the Tosca.
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Author: MarlboroughMan
Date: 2012-03-01 16:26
To be fair in re what John Peacock posted, I have no idea what the Buffet key placement is. If it's in an awkward spot, it would be a problem.
My only experience with the LH Eb is on Wurlitzers--you can see a pic of mine at the masthead of my blog (link below)--it's a photo of my Fritz Wurlitzer R-B. The LH Eb key is considerably removed from the other cluster--unless you have fingers like a gorilla, you'll never hit it by accident.
Aesthetically, I'll take a Wurlitzer R-B or Full Boehm any day over what I call the "Incomplete Boehm", sans third left hand ring, etc. I don't find awkward fingerings, sliding keys, and flubbing notes to be part of the fun. These are the things that truly get in the way--for me, at least.
Eric
******************************
The Jazz Clarinet
http://thejazzclarinet.blogspot.com/
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Author: Bob Phillips
Date: 2012-03-01 16:36
Coming from still trying to break myself from the sale of my Full Boehm clarinet, I have the following experience.
The left hand Eb key should be on every clarinet. The woodpile, the pinky fingered notes are available except: no left hand Eb/Ab. Its absence complicates LEARNING to play the clarinet when, if the duplicative philosophy that brought us 2 Cs, 2 C#s and 2 Bs were taken to its completion, then the Eb/Ab key would be standard.
In real life, however, when you encounter any note in the woodpile while playing, something in your brain chooses which pinky to send off to work; and the choice is the result of habit and recognizing what key you're playing in. Theoretically, that choice of pinkies should be simplified by having two options for Eb/Ab. In fact, you still have to learn what to do.
That you have to look ahead (literally or by expecting from the key sig) that you'll want to free up the right pinky 'cause it's going to be needed is part of the game.
As mentioned yesterday, after 50 years, my brain still thinks that the proper way to play Bb5 is TR XOX G# | OOO whenever there is an Ab5 in the neighborhood.
And, I once lost an audition where the test was to play the Waltz of the Flowers on a Bb clarinet. My Full Boehm was in the shop, my borrowed horn had no left hand Eb; and I just died. (Two wrongs: transcribing the A part to Bb and having no left hand Eb key don't make a right.)
Surprisingly, the absence of the left hand Eb key doesn't make life as painful as I expected it to. BUT, perhaps, I more than others have to stop and punctuate my part with "L" and "R" markings more than folks who were so unfortunate as to have missed the joy of a complete Boehm system.
Bob Phillips
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Author: William
Date: 2012-03-01 18:45
I have it on my bass & wish it was also on my soprano's. Those few who remove it are just too lazy to learn to use it--my old college professor included.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2012-03-01 18:56
I don't think they're lazy - they're usually a bit too set in their ways.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: mvjohnso
Date: 2012-03-01 20:10
To John's comment about simplicity, I don't think that should be the goal in creating the best instrument (may I suggest that you switch back to the Chalumeau, cool instrument, if that is your goal). Furthermore, I do not think visual aesthetics should be the primary concern of whether a note should be there, it should the function. As the functionality of the key affects the auditory aesthetics, which is what I believe is the primary goal of the instrument. I, for one, don't think the key is ugly enough (The Buffet one is placed like any normal Eb key, I have fingers like a Gorilla apparently). But, I used to play oboe and was a big fan of having lots and lots of keys. The way I learned to use the Eb was by taking advantage of a bad habit I had. I almost always used my right hand first for pinky keys, less B where I used left for the most part. So, when I got the new key I switch to left first, unless it was B then right. I found this to be a great tool to break ones habits and to get used to the new key position (though the ey is good some do hit it on accident so they avoid it and the left had which IS a problem). I'm really used to using the Aux Eb and I think it is and invaluable tool. But, recently mine broke so I've been doing without (I still can, and I only notice it two cases (1) when it is impossible (ie cases of Eb-notEbpinky-notEbpinky-Eb or G#/C#-notEbpinky-Eb) or (2) sight reading; so, to the ludite concern of it making me a worse clarinet player (it doesn't). But, if you are curious (or you just want those around you who are envious of the key to shut up for a bit) I suggest taking it off, you just have to unscrew 3 things and your horn will work fine. At the very least it might help to break the "bad" habit (IMHO the more passages under your fingers the better) you have temporarily to learn new ways of fingering. But, don't leave it off, put it back on. Remember, the only things that get in the way is that which you are not used to.
Post Edited (2012-03-01 20:14)
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Author: GBK
Date: 2012-03-01 20:34
Stanley Drucker showed me that took his LH Eb key off on his Prestige clarinet.
He said something to the effect that he never needed it during his entire career so there was no need to learn to use it now.
...GBK
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Author: MarlboroughMan
Date: 2012-03-01 20:50
Drucker is a phenom in terms of technique, though, and probably is brilliant at the right-left 'phantom' switch, as well as "the slide" even in break-neck passages. But if you're an ordinary mortal and not TMTGPOTCOSG (The Most Technically Gifted Player Over The Course Of Several Generations), you need the left hand Eb to play some basic things in certain keys.
For most folks, the test is simple: play Interrupted Scales in E minor, Ab major, E major, B major, etc., or some of the studies in Baermann 4 (No 3, "Melancholy" is a good one). If you can play them at just about any tempo, sounding as cleanly as you do in F major, then your name is probably Stanley Drucker (or Anleystay Uckerdray). If your name is NOT one of those and you can still do it, and you happen to be 19 years old, I suggest you record Contrasts immediately.
Eric
******************************
The Jazz Clarinet
http://thejazzclarinet.blogspot.com/
Post Edited (2012-03-01 20:52)
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Author: Danny Boy
Date: 2012-03-01 21:12
I have it on all my clarinets - and wouldn't be without it.
My personal opinion is that the argument that it makes the clarinet look less aesthetically pleasing is firstly wrong and secondly irrelevant. The clarinet is a tool and a means to an end - and that end is a beautiful sound, not a look. Plus my Toscas look far more pleasing to the eye than many a clarinet I have seen anyway.
One of the delights of the Boehm system clarinet is the fact that it almost completely eliminates the need for sliding and therefore the need to have rollers on the clarinet. The one exception to this is manoeuvres involving Eb - as the key simply wasn't duplicated on both sides as the E/B, F/C and F sharp/C sharp keys were. It's a simple development of the clarinet that Eb key has been added to the left hand side - it considerably improves things for me and many others.
If you don't like it/want it - fine, but don't inflict that on others and especially not one's pupils.
I use the LH Eb key as much is not more than my RH key. I was taught to use the pinky keys extensively for changing tone colours - and there have been many, many occasions when it's more convenient to use the RH key for this purpose (as it's been mentioned in this thread already - I also find the low F correction key useful for adding another dimension to this side of things).
As for trilling from middle D to middle Eb or low G to low Ab - no contest for me, I'll always do it on the left side. The trills at the end of the first movement of Weber 1 are a great example of where I get a much more powerful trill with the left side.
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Author: Wes
Date: 2012-03-01 21:21
It's a great key and should be on all clarinets.
I played about 30 years with that key on a Buffet and later switched to a Buffet with the simple Boehm system. While I liked the key, I don't miss it now. It doesn't seem to be a very big issue.
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Author: MarlboroughMan
Date: 2012-03-01 21:38
Truth is, even with a LH Eb, a player will have to slide (either from Ab-C in the left hand or C-Eb in the right) when playing a broken Ab chord (see Baermann Division 3, #2). And that's a pretty basic level requirement on the instrument, I would think. That's why Wurlitzer puts rollers between the right hand C-Eb, so that the transition is made as easily as possible.
My vintage Fritz's don't have those rollers (though I've seen later Fritz Wurlitzer models that do)--but he made a larger, more sloped Ab key to aid a slide from Ab down to C to rectify the situation. Still, I'd rather have the rollers that are on the new Herbert Wurlitzers.
I think this is real basic stuff. If you want to master the music, you have to have an instrument technically capable of aiding that mastery. If not, you'll just be flubbing and bubbling around in certain keys (some of them as basic as E minor).
Danny Boy, you hit the nail on the head with that statement that we shouldn't push limitations on our students. If I had a dime for every time I heard that Drucker quote... (first time I heard it was when an early teacher of mine wanted me to take the LH Eb key off one of my Wurlitzers).
Eric
******************************
The Jazz Clarinet
http://thejazzclarinet.blogspot.com/
Post Edited (2012-03-01 22:15)
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Author: marcia
Date: 2012-03-01 21:43
It's your instrument...you can do with it what you like!
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Author: TJTG
Date: 2012-03-02 00:03
Leave it there. The reason it is "in the way" for your teacher, is because they've never had it. I've had it since high school and I cannot think of a time I've accidentally hit it.
This is silly, like saying to take of your RH C-key because you might hit it while attempting a B. It doesn't happen for people who live with the key. It belongs there just like the other three notes have two pinky options.
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Author: Bob Phillips
Date: 2012-03-02 19:12
NOTE: If you have the left hand Eb key addiction, and your clarinet is in the shop, your borrowed 17/6 is going to trip you up.
Bob Phillips
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Author: William
Date: 2012-03-02 19:30
I think all clarinets--beginning through pro--should have the 'extra' lh Eb key as well as the articulated G# and 1-3 Bb.
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Author: SteveG_CT
Date: 2012-03-02 23:13
William wrote:
> I think all clarinets--beginning through pro--should have the
> 'extra' lh Eb key as well as the articulated G# and 1-3 Bb.
Wouldn't bother me any but there'd be quite a few people whining about losing a couple of fingering options. That seems to happen here whenever someone mentions the articulated C#/G# mechanism.
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2012-03-03 05:01
>> However my teacher/s did not/have not liked that key. When they try my clarinet they tell me it gets in the way and I should remove it when I get a chance. <<
Can't be sure, but it sounds like your teacher suggested you remove it because of how it feels to them, not how it works for you. Did they somehow check and verify that it also causes you the same problems? It is a fact that many players have no problems with this key and many like it and use it, so there is nothing universal about it being "good" or "bad".
>> My vote is to do without it. This is partly because I think the risk of hitting it by accident is high enough that it outweighs the advantage of having it when you want to use it. But actually, the main point is aesthetic: it just makes an instrument look ugly <<
This is the same, looking at it in a general way instead of judging it under the context. I've played a clarinet with this key for years but pretty much never used it. I've never hit it by accident. I never thought the clarinet was ugly because of it. you can explain what problems someone might have becaue of it, but to say they should remove it is something else completely.
>> Truth is, even with a LH Eb, a player will have to slide (either from Ab-C in the left hand or C-Eb in the right) when playing a broken Ab chord (see Baermann Division 3, #2). <<
Can you explain what "broken Ab chord" is (for those of us with English as a second language and without this book)? I assume you mean major (but maybe not). I thought it meant the notes of an Ab (major?) chord up and down but it can't be it because this would have no problem without the left Eb key.
>> If your name is NOT one of those and you can still do it, and you happen to be 19 years old, I suggest you record Contrasts immediately. <<
This approach that happens sometimes on the forum, to put some people at a super human level and "the rest" at some lower level who could use any help etc. just doesn't really work. I agree thta no one should remove this key just because another player chose to remove that key. I know your example above was a bit of a jokge but still, maybe someone "like that" doesn't even want to play Contrasts. Both approaches are too generlized.
>> Wouldn't bother me any but there'd be quite a few people whining about losing a couple of fingering options. That seems to happen here whenever someone mentions the articulated C#/G# mechanism. <<
It's not whining at all. You are saying this like it is a bad thing. It is a good thing that people explain what is the compromise of adding something, no matter what it is. It is simply true that this mechanism makes some fingerings impossible. The articulated C#/G# disables some fingerings that for me are far more important than an articulated C#/G#. What you you sacrifice for this mech, if you had to? Would you sac your upper trill key? Would you sac your low E? How about your altisimo register? Probably not, but the point is that the compromise of the articulated mech is too big for some players.
Post Edited (2012-03-03 05:08)
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Author: John Peacock
Date: 2012-03-03 11:20
So it seems I'm outvoted on the aesthetics issue. I won't try to argue back, except to emphasise that I explicitly didn't say that simpler was better, plus I can't agree that the clarinet is just a tool for making sound. Many musical instruments are objects of great visual beauty, and I'm sure players derive a useful inspiration from holding an elegantly crafted artefact.
But on a more practical matter, and regarding the issue of safe placement of this extra key, it seems to me that Selmer do a better job with it than Buffet. The question is how far the keyhead should be offset down the instrument from the main LH keys so that you don't risk hitting it by accident when moving between these keys. The offset is bigger with Selmer, and so it requires less adjustment to feel comfortable when switching from a traditional instrument. And somehow, their whole design of the key seems more visually pleasing to me, whereas the Buffet implementation looks like an afterthought - but no doubt everyone will disagree with that too.
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Author: MarlboroughMan
Date: 2012-03-03 12:59
My Drucker comments were both tongue in cheek and acknowledging his remarkable technical abilities. They're also the result of 25 years of exasperation with quotes from "legendary" players "put at a super human level" as a case for something. Like you, I don't think it works--but perhaps my sarcasm was too much or lost in translation or both...I hope some got a chuckle out my hyperbole--including GBK (though perhaps I was too savage in my wit? If so, apologies).
The Contrasts comment was another Drucker reference: he recorded a rather amazing version of it when he was 19 years old. I'm jokingly suggesting that if you can play as well as Drucker, and you're 19 years old, you might want to document it for posterity (or nobody will believe you when you're older).
A 'Broken Chord' is an arpeggio exercise that goes up and down the instrument, progressively getting higher, then lower, by starting on successive chord tones. C-E-G-C-, E-G-C-E, G-C-E-G, etc.... If you have the Bellison/Klose book there is a broken chord exercise on page 128 (I don't know about other editions). If you haven't played Baermann, I recommend getting it--it's a more thorough workout than Klose.
Eric
******************************
The Jazz Clarinet
http://thejazzclarinet.blogspot.com/
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Author: mvjohnso
Date: 2012-03-03 17:41
Sorry John if I came off as rude before, and you are very correct that I shouldn't have made the comment about the simplicity (though it seems to me that you are a fan of visual simplicity). Most of that was just the amalgamation of all the angst I have gotten from those without the key (especially those like the teacher in this original post). And, you are right that musical instruments are things of great visual beauty, I just hold that the concern of visual beauty ought to come after the concern of auditory beauty.
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Author: clarinetguy ★2017
Date: 2012-03-03 19:17
I've never played a clarinet with the left hand E-flat/A-flat key, but if it helps you, leave it on!
As someone who also plays sax (though not as well as clarinet), I find it interesting that saxophones have changed over the last 50 years, but clarinets really haven't (I'm speaking here of instrument keys). The high F-sharp key, which really isn't necessary, has become a fixture on most modern horns (except for the least expensive ones). It is possible on most newer instruments to play a low A-flat with the left pinky on any of the left hand spatula keys. Need to play from F-sharp to G-sharp? No problem--just leave the G-sharp key down. Want another quick B-flat alternative? Just use the bis key. In many ways, the sax is an "easier" instrument than the clarinet because there are fewer difficult fingering issues. If anyone thinks I'm wrong, please speak up!
I can understand why certain clarinet innovations never really caught on. When I was first learning the clarinet back in the 60s, the Mazzeo system generated a lot of conversation, but it's largely forgotten today. It seems to me that when you try to solve one problem, others are created. Still, I find the idea of a left hand E-flat key to be a good one.
As long as we've started to discuss clarinet key innovations, I've noticed that Leblanc, on some of their discontinued professional models, introduced an extension of the C-sharp/G-sharp key, making it possible to press this key with the right hand first finger. I don't recall seeing this discussed on this board, and I'm wondering what those who have this key extension on their instruments think of it.
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Author: EEBaum
Date: 2012-03-03 19:20
Spending most of my time on a Leblanc paperclip contra that only has 1 RH side key, the thought of removing a key because it's ugly or has an outside possibility of being hit by accident boggles the mind.
-Alex
www.mostlydifferent.com
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