 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: southernclarinetist
Date: 2012-02-06 22:10
I swear if I hear "you are closing your throat" one more time I'm going to scream!!!!!! I have a recital soon and am doing my best however nothing I do satisfies my instructor. I am doing my best. I'm not Harold Wright. I apparently close my throat 100% of the time and despite being a respected performer everywhere else, my teacher thinks I stink. I feel like quitting. I don't know what to do for my throat. I'm going downhill in my playing despite practicing. I'm discouraged. After playing for this long and only months away from my degree, is it worth quitting? Please, no snarky answers like "practice more". I need real help.
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2012-02-06 22:36
Now, now, there's no need to give up over a mean instructor. Although I can't even imagine what one can do for a throat since only giraffes have throat muscles.
He might mean you're shaping everything as if you were saying 'AHHHH.' This tack will really only push the back of your tongue INTO the top of your throat, effectively closing off the very aperture you WANT to keep open.
What you want to do is walk into your teacher's office tomorrow and tell him that you've found another instructor, thank you very much (whether you have or not is not the point). And finish off the year playing the way you want.
Then find an instructor who knows what he's talking about (and also has no particular agenda for his students) and take up with him.
Why not try Alcides Rodriguez? I hear he is a really good guy
..............Paul Aviles
Post Edited (2012-02-06 22:44)
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Author: Sean.Perrin
Date: 2012-02-06 22:58
Well, first of all, are you closing your throat? Perhaps that's why he (she) is saying so. Before you quit altogether or berate your teacher in a public forum, why not try and heed the advice. If it wasn't happening, I don't think he'd be saying anything. And I doubt he has told you to your face that "you stink," or that he even thinks such is the case.
Old habits die hard, I had to spend several years trying to stop bunching up my chin from bad habits I developed in high school. I'm glad I fixed it. I'm glad I was told to do so.
A good teacher doesn't tell you what you want to hear, he tells you what you need to hear... what's going to make you better.
Founder and host of the Clarineat Podcast: http://www.clarineat.com
Post Edited (2012-02-06 22:59)
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Author: Wes
Date: 2012-02-06 23:16
Do not give up! We all have had times when we did not get the desired result.
Clarinets need pressurized air to sound. Try taking four deep breaths without any exhaling. You will find that the air is really trying to get out and into your clarinet and it is enough to get a good sound. It doesn't worry whether your throat is open or closed or sideways. Good luck!
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Author: Mary Jo
Date: 2012-02-07 00:07
A good instructor identifies a problem and then helps the student overcome it. A bad instructor finds little student problems and berates them into big ones.
As it's written, "Don't make a Marianna's Trench out of a gopher hole."
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Author: bethmhil
Date: 2012-02-07 00:15
We've all been there. Please don't give up. I know it's tempting, I know it seems really scary and daunting right now to continue forging ahead. But, assuming that you love music and love to play your instrument, giving up would be the worst mistake you could possibly make. It seems like a good choice now, but think about it in the future... you will regret it, I promise. It takes much more courage to keep going.
As Sean so rightly said, your teacher does not and should not tell you what you want to hear. If your teacher tells you you're great all the time without any criticism, you will go nowhere.
When I get disgruntled with my clarinet teacher always telling me what my left hand is doing wrong (even after I think I have it fixed!), she always (so obnoxiously cheerfully) tells me, "That's what you're paying me for, lady!"
Now, if your clarinet teacher is constantly telling you that your throat is closed without anything to back up that criticism and never gives you any positive reinforcement, then you may want to consider going to someone else. As much as you should seek criticism from clarinet instructors, they also shouldn't be nasty and unkind about their criticisms. I know for me, every once in a while, I do need to hear, "Beth, this passage sounded beautiful!"
BMH
Illinois State University, BME and BM Performance
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Author: kdk
Date: 2012-02-07 01:18
A teacher, to be both honest and positive, needs to be able to describe what you're doing wrong and what you need to do to fix it. If repeating the same thing - whether the diagnostic or the prescriptive part - ad nauseum doesn't help (it rarely does), then it really is up to the teacher to find another way of correcting you. You say that you're doing your best, but do you actually understand what your teacher is hearing *in your sound* that he thinks is caused by "closing your throat?" You can't fix what you don't hear.
I don't know what the tone of communication is between you and the teacher at this point. If you can talk with him calmly, tell him that you are very frustrated because you just don't understand what it is you are trying to correct or what "closing your throat" really means, so you don't know when or if you've gotten it right. Leave out the part about your not being Harold Wright (he already knows that). It may be that he's just a good player with a lack of patience for the process of teaching, or it may be that in his zeal to get the best playing from you, he's not seeing that what he's doing seems to be counterproductive in its effect on your attitude toward playing.
When I was in eighth grade (a long time ago) I had a teacher, who later went on to be the 2nd clarinet in a major symphony orchestra, who was verbally abusive to the point of calling me stupid (and a couple of other things) when I couldn't play something at the level he expected it (and I nearly quit the lessons, too), so I know how damaging that can be. If that kind of abuse is going on, I'd advise leaving the teacher. If real abuse isn't involved, maybe it's just a question of his not being able to say clearly enough what he thinks you need to do. There's lots of stuff posted here on the BB, which you can find by searching, probably using a keyword of "throat" or maybe "open throat" that analyses what's actually going on (or isn't really under the player's direct control) in the mouth and throat areas. Mostly it's a case of needing to relax some things that you may be holding too rigidly. But it sounds as though more than anything else you need clearer instruction about what *to do,* rather than what *not to do.* If you can find a way to communicate that to your teacher, you may be doing both of you a very big favor.
Karl
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Author: johng ★2017
Date: 2012-02-07 01:40
Agreed. But who has some ideas for our friend about just what it means to play with an open throat and how can one get there? Anyone?
John Gibson, Founder of JB Linear Music, www.music4woodwinds.com
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Author: Ed Palanker
Date: 2012-02-07 01:42
I can imagine how frustating it must be but don't just give up this close to the finish line. Closing one's throat is and can be a real problem but could actually be several other things giving that impression. I don't know, nor do I care, who your teacher is but instead of just telling you that over and over he/she should have been giving you excersices and instructions on what to do about it. It's easy to say you're doing this or that wrong, it's another thing to give guidance how to overcome the problem. I have some suggestions on my clarinet pages on my website but think about these things.
1- Try to yawn, that's about as open your throat can get. Although you can't play that way you can try to get as close as possible to the feeling of the air flowing freely from the back of your throat. Also, inhale a big breath and let it out very easliy and relaxed. When playing find the vowel that gives you as close to that feeling as possible. Like saying OO or OH, what ever drops the back of your throat to relax it.
2- Make sure your tongue is not blocking the air. If it's to high in back or in front it will do just that.
3- You may have a large or thick tongue in or near the back of your mouth so experiment with the placement.Check my website.
4- Once you can figure out if one of those is a problem then I always suggest practicing 12ths slowly. Low E for 4 beats making a small cresc. going to the 12th B above without making ANY adjustment in the back of your throat or tongue so the B is as full a tone as the E. Then F to C, etc. till you get to the throat tone
F to C. ESP eddiesclarinet.com
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Author: RachelB4
Date: 2012-02-07 03:12
I have gone through the same or similar problem. I know how frustrating it can be, and I was at a point, too, of considering quitting. but don't. This is just a little hill and once you get over it you will be one more step towards playing with your fullest potential. Do not place your confidence in your playing ability soley based on what your teachers say. Listen to what they say, but don't let their words get to you personally.
There are a few visuals that helped me get my throat to relax and open:
1- Imagine you are breathing hot humid air out to fog a piece of glass.
2- Remember when you've had a really cold or chilling mint and when you breath out, you feel this cold air on the back of your throat. Imagine you are trying recreate that cold feeling on the back of your throat while playing.
3- Imagine you are yawning while playing. Arching the roof of your mouth helps your throat relax and open.
Also I practiced blowing or breathing out before sticking the clarinet in my mouth and playing. Remember that the air production does not come from your chest or your throat. It comes from deep down in your lungs with thorough support with your diaphragm. I feel like part of my problems I had with my throat came from insufficient air support.
You can do this!
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Author: clarinetguy ★2017
Date: 2012-02-07 04:18
I really like Ed Palanker's ideas. The yawning idea is very similar to a suggestion found in Keith Stein's The Art of Clarinet Playing. I had the extremely good fortune to study with Stein for a couple years, and he always had a number of ideas to get his point across. Once in a lesson he told me to growl while playing, another idea for keeping the throat open. I thought it was a little strange at the time, but it did work.
The job of a clarinet instructor on any level is to instruct! It is his/her job to come up with ideas to help a player get better. Constantly picking on a student's playing without coming up with practical suggestions is poor teaching. There is absolutely no excuse for it.
I once briefly studied with the principal clarinet player of a major symphony orchestra. He was a wonderful player, but I thought he was an atrocious teacher. He'd throw little tantrums all the time and put down other teachers.
He seldom had anything constructive to say, and he never had any practical suggestions. Looking back, I learned nothing from him.
One other thought. Playing double lip might help to "open things up" a bit, but you probably don't want to make the switch at this point. What about using a mouthpiece patch? I don't currently use one since I play double lip, but I've used them in the past, and I had the feeling of "opening up" more.
Don't quit now. In a few months you'll have your degree.
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Author: clarinetguy ★2017
Date: 2012-02-07 04:41
Here's something else I've fooled with lately, and I think it can be helpful.
Saxophone players often warm up with harmonics--playing a lower note and moving on to other notes in the harmonic series without moving any fingers.
This isn't something clarinet players often do, but a variation of this idea comes from Andrew Roberts in an article about playing E-flat clarinet (http://www.theclarinet.co.uk/articles/eflat.shtml):
"My personal exercise for the Eflat consists of playing as much of the time as possible in the upper register without the register key. This forces you to use the correct air speed and helps create a true legato. Try it on the clarinet too, you will be amazed how much it can improve your playing."
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Author: mihalis
Date: 2012-02-07 05:58
Can you play something and send it here?
It is the sound and its articulation that counts after all.
Mike.
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Author: MarlboroughMan
Date: 2012-02-07 13:43
If things are getting worse and your teacher says the same things every lesson, chances are it's time to move on. Four years is a long time to study with anyone (I think too long: two years was always the maximum useful time for me with any one teacher--at least in terms of intensive, weekly lessons). Be courteous and professional for the remainder of your time there, do the best you can with the teacher's advice, and when you leave take only those things which helped your playing.
The whole 'open throat' thing is a little suspect to me anyhow. I've known accomplished teachers obsessed with this idea; have their students yawning and gaping constantly. Usually makes the playing unnatural for their students, to be honest. Then I've known others who encourage nearly the opposite, and both types claiming to be in the 'American school' of clarinetistry. The more folks you meet, the more contradictions you'll hear. There is no substitute for using your own ears and experimenting for yourself.
Ultimately, you have to find what works for you to produce the sound you are after--it is only when you make that artistic committment (and stop looking for approval and pats on the back from professors) that you will be on the road to acheiving what you want.
For what it's worth, I don't think you should give up. I DO think you should take this as a challenge to think and hear for yourself in a more engaged and informed way--and to remain professional towards your current teacher until you can respectfully move on.
All the best,
Eric
******************************
The Jazz Clarinet
http://thejazzclarinet.blogspot.com/
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Author: Nessie1
Date: 2012-02-07 16:34
First the question of the open/closed throat - this was an expression which my teacher often used. I think that the suggestions of breathing right down to the diaphragm help. Do you practice long notes, octave slurs, slow scales?
Secondly the teacher - it does sound a bit as though you and your teacher are not working well together - it may be nobody's fault and it doesn't mean that you are unteachable or untalented and it does not necessarily mean that the teacher is bad either but may be it's time to move on although, given your final recital coming up, whether you choose to do so before or after it may take some careful thought.
Good luck
Vanessa.
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Author: ww.player
Date: 2012-02-07 16:35
Southernclarinetist, I understand the feeling, but if you're going to quit every time something gets tough, then chances are you'll never accomplish anything worthwhile in life. If playing well was easy, everyone would play an instrument. Hang in there.
Problems involving the throat and tongue are the toughest to correct because neither you nor your teacher can see what's really going on. As Ed alluded to, everyone's physiology is different. What fixes the problem in one person may not work at all for the next.
A great player has figured what works for him or her. A great teacher has to understand the problem, know how to correct it for different physiologies, be very good at explaining the problem and solution in a variety of ways, and have an arsenal of exercises to practice. Like bodies, brains work differently. An explanation that works for one student may not make sense to the next. I really believe it's just as hard to be a great teacher as a great player, and many great players never become even good teachers.
If you think your teacher is correct about the problem but can't help you find a solution, then perhaps a few lessons with a different teacher are in order, just to get extra help with this one problem. Without hearing and seeing you play and speaking with you about your sense of what's happening, I wouldn't begin to try to diagnose your problem. However, I haven't ever encountered a problem that couldn't eventually be fixed with time, patience, and persistence.
In the meantime, just try to focus on all the things you're doing well. Fixating on one problem will drive you crazy, especially one that may take a while to fix. And don't give up.
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Author: Bob Bernardo
Date: 2012-02-07 19:34
http://youtu.be/3wD_ABnsxx8
Hope this works. Sort of a friend from Interlochen, Lee Morgan has a very simple way to approach breathing.
If the site above doesn't work, don't kill me! Try googling Lee Morgan, the Lyical. Something should show up.
Lee talks about the throat indirectly by using a different throat sounds instead of saying "0". Anyway, look him up and between what everyone has said above me in this post, this actual deminstration may be the key to helping you with your issue. I'm calling this an issue and not a problem, because the more you practice Lee's technique as well as others, your issue will be gone, and no longer a problem. As with most topics regarding mastering the clarinet - Take your time. Give yourself several months, perhaps longer.
I strongly beleive in starting my practicing everyday with long tones, in which I practice getting the best sound I can and making sure the reeds work well. Even at 55 years old I can hold an open "G" well over a minute, playing softly of course. It is my opinion that doing this type of practice will surely help keep your throat open. If you close the throat there is no way you will be able to hold notes this long, because of your airway.
My last comment - Perhaps your teacher is wrong? Talk to other friends and perhaps take a few lessons from someone else in your area, even if it requires an hour or more to get there.
Hope this helps you and many other players with this problem.
To give you an idea of how great Lee is he played the Neilson Concerto for his senior recital (12th grade.) Pretty cool guy. He also won the concerto competition at Interlochen, beating out about 400 other musicians.
Designer of - Vintage 1940 Cicero Mouthpieces and the La Vecchia mouthpieces
Yamaha Artist 2015
Post Edited (2012-02-08 02:13)
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Author: Joanna
Date: 2012-02-08 01:53
Hey!
I had this same problem a while ago. I find what really helps (no matter how silly it may seem) is this exercise. It's a difficult exercise, so don't be discouraged if it is difficult to do. It took me over a year to get it really, but it really does help with playing. This is what you do:
1) Remove mouthpiece and barrel from the rest of the clarinet
2) Blow into mouthpiece. What pitch are you producing? If the sound is a concert F#, you are probably "biting" or closing the throat.
The pitch you want to get is an F natural. Now, yes, this is an exercise more for flexibility, but I find when I'm really tense/tight it really reminds me to open my jaw and relax my throat.
Give it a whirl and let me know what you think,
Joanna
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Author: Sean.Perrin
Date: 2012-02-08 16:29
I'm shocked at the number of posts here that, instead of offering helpful advice, slammed the teacher and suggested he switch.
Why is everyone slamming the instructor? Even if it is the problem, we don't have enough grounds to assume that he or she is incapable or somehow wrong, and even if we did. We have no right to call out fellow professionals in such a way without having the full story.
Founder and host of the Clarineat Podcast: http://www.clarineat.com
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Author: MarlboroughMan
Date: 2012-02-08 17:10
Not slamming or calling out anyone: just pointing out that there is usually a time to move on, even from the best of teachers. The OP showed symptoms that this may very well be the case.
Eric
******************************
The Jazz Clarinet
http://thejazzclarinet.blogspot.com/
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2012-02-08 17:19
Sean.Perrin wrote:
> Even if it is the
> problem, we don't have enough grounds to assume that he or she
> is incapable or somehow wrong,
I don't know - if someone is just telling me again and again the same thing like a broken record, I could just create a loop and play it back. There's something wrong when a teacher can't break the student out of a loop.
> We have no
> right to call out fellow professionals in such a way without
> having the full story.
Sure we do. We NEVER have the full story unless we're there, and we never will be. The student's side in this case is that they're not being helped by the teacher - and when you're paying for a teacher, you have the right to get what you pay for. It doesn't matter that this particular teacher might be the best possible teacher for 99.99% of the students - it isn't working HERE, and the student is frustrated. A GOOD teacher would have figured out that there's something not working and would have referred them - even if for only one lesson - to a colleague to see if they could be helped elsewhere.
This is equivalent to what I do with a doctor - if I don't feel comfortable talking with a doctor, I switch - even though I might actually want the particular doctor I'm uncomfortable do an operation on me. The requirements I have are different in each case.
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Author: Nessie1
Date: 2012-02-09 16:20
As I said in my earlier post and others seem to agree, the issue here is not necessarily that the teacher is a "bad" teacher but that for some reason the relationship with this particular pupil isn't working. I'm sure we'll all agree that a successful teacher/pupil relationship can be a very personal thing. However I would also agree that just one or two lessons elsewhere might be all that was needed to sort out this problem. I remember my wonderful teacher saying that, on the odd occasion when she sent a deputy to teach her pupils at a junior conservatoire, the next week some of them would be saying "So and so last week said......" and it would be something that she had been saying for months! (lol).
Vanessa.
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Author: dtiegs
Date: 2012-02-12 01:24
I feel you, although you may argue that because of my age (15) I am unable to give any sort of advice.
When I went cold turkey for two months, due to a summer vacation, I could not stop craving to play again. At that time, my instructor had pushed me to the edge of my patience. I had done what I could have done, and the pressure he forced on me did not help, therefore I looked forward the vacation and had planned on using it as my reason to quit. The pressure he had on me only hindered my progress.
That plan did not last two weeks. I had all this free time I did not know what to do with, and when I did have something to do, I would have rather practiced. I came to a point where I cried. (As dramatic as that may sound.) I had left the thing I love on another continent, I might have suffered less if I had left my leg behind.
After two months of longing, I came home tired. I woke the next morning, I took my clarinet out of my case, I played. I felt so stupid for letting someone else lead me to the edge of my patience, and almost made me want to quit.
At times I get frustrated, but I dare not think of quitting.
Practice is such an ugly word. I prefer to think that I am improving, not practicing. "If you think you are improving; then you are improving" my mom said.
Something made you want to play clarinet. Something made you want to keep playing. Don't let someone, who apparently doesn't know you that well, influence your decisions.
Best of Luck.
DTiegs
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Author: Claire Annette
Date: 2012-02-12 02:45
You may be 15, but I liked what you wrote. It's hard, sometimes, for people to understand how an instrumentalist can love an inanimate object. It sounds like you learned a lot about yourself and your love of clarinet playing from that experience.
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Author: Tony F
Date: 2012-02-12 04:07
Quote
Why is everyone slamming the instructor? Even if it is the problem, we don't have enough grounds to assume that he or she is incapable or somehow wrong, and even if we did. We have no right to call out fellow professionals in such a way without having the full story.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I don't see this as slamming the teacher, it's just a matter of accepting that this particular teacher/student relationship isn't working well for some reason. Sometimes its a matter of instructional skills, and sometimes it's just a matter of incompatible personalities. Either way, there comes a pont where the student no longer has confidence in the teacher. Time to move on.
Tony F.
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Author: kdk
Date: 2012-02-12 04:18
I suspect you meant to direct your comment to the original poster and happened to send it while my post above was on your screen. But I want to point out, relative to my post, that I nearly quit taking lessons because of that teacher, but I had no intention of quitting clarinet and would eventually have found another teacher. As it happened, the man in question got his symphony orchestra job near the end of the school year and was gone and replaced at the music school by the following September. I was just about your age - I was in ninth grade, so probably 15 at the time.
I can very much identify with what you've said in another way as well. Four years later I needed to have my tonsils removed. During the recovery, which ended up taking a couple of months, I couldn't play - air leaked out through my nose to the degree that producing a tone on a clarinet was impossible. By the time the enforced vacation from clarinet had gone on for about 3 weeks, I began to miss it so much that I started dreaming about it. I couldn't wait to get back to it.
Karl
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Author: C.Elizabeth07
Date: 2012-02-12 15:22
I felt the EXACT same way....My teacher drove me crazy since I began working with her last year, I mean really pushing me and ripped me to shreds time after time. I used to cry in each lesson and they'd send me out on my way with a piece of chocolate for my pain and suffering.
I recently began my grad school auditions at some extremely competitive schools and they went AMAZINGLY. I was so nervous walking in there. I was afraid that I was in way over my head but as I listened to others warming up I realized how right she was about everything. My playing was far more accurate, my articulation more effortless, my connections and fluidity, my understanding of the musical line. It was a relief and exciting to realize that I could hold my own and my auditions went incredibly well. I actually was unofficially accepted on the spot to 2 schools which I know I would have never gotten in to without her guidance.
I also performed as a guest artist at a clarinet festival several months ago. When I performed I thought I played about a 6 on a scale of 1-10. When I heard the recording I remember thinking "Damn, well if this is my 6 now... I'm really ok with that." It was such a giant improvement from where I was.
Frustration isn't a bad thing, it means your being challenged. And in challenging ourselves we grow and improve. If things were just easy and there were no hurdles to overcome how would you improve? I found my frustration totally worthwhile, although it took time to see it. I hope you do too in time.
and in regards to "slamming the instructor". I agree that we shouldn't be doing that, I just feel like its a bit of a cop out. If I simply switched instructors every time something got hard, or frustrating or they said something I didn't like I wouldn't have gotten very far...
Post Edited (2012-02-12 15:29)
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Author: alto gether
Date: 2012-02-12 23:28
Okay, there are effective teachers who aren't good teachers. If you drive your students to tears and they improve anyway, you are still falling down on half of the job.
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Author: bethmhil
Date: 2012-02-13 01:00
Although I can appreciate what C.Elizabeth is saying (and congratulate you!), I agree with alto_gether. Process is just as important as ending result.
BMH
Illinois State University, BME and BM Performance
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Author: clarinetguy ★2017
Date: 2012-02-13 02:27
Are there any current or former students of David Pino who are reading this? Pino was a student of Keith Stein for many years, it appears that he has continued the Stein tradition, and yes, that's a great thing!
In Pino's book, The Clarinet and Clarinet Playing, there is an excellent chapter titled "Teaching other Clarinetists." There is a section of this chapter titled "No-Fault Teaching."
Pino's advice to private teachers is priceless. He begins this section with these words:
"I therefore advocate a way that gets results by fostering the student's own natural abilities, by avoiding any crushing of the ego, by strengthening self-confidence, nd by encouraging musical experimentation." (p. 127)
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