 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: kawallace91
Date: 2012-01-26 00:04
This semester, a nightmare has come true: my professor decided it's my turn to play bass clarinet in our wind symphony. I would probably be excited if it weren't such a problem physically. I'm under 5 feet tall, and with that comes short arms, small hands, small mouth, etc. The biggest problem seems to be reaching the right pinky keys. Doing that is a big stretch, and after having our first rehearsal this morning, I'm feeling pain in my neck and back on my right side.
I know to some extent, there isn't much I can do about this, but I'm wondering if anyone has encountered this kind of situation before and found ways to compensate for it. I toyed briefly with holding it to the side instead of between my legs, more like a bassoon (which I played last year without issue!) or saxophone, and that lessened the reach a bit. My professor and my conductor are aware of my issues, and if it gets to be too much of a problem, they can have someone else play it. I know the experience will definitely be valuable though, so I hope it doesn't come down to that. It's been a stressful start though!
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2012-01-26 00:26
I reckon if the crook is redesigned with a tighter bend at the top so the mouthpiece is further down the instrument (like the crooks seen on German basses), that should make things easier as it'll raise the whole instrument much higher off the ground which could be beneficial for low C basses.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: SteveG_CT
Date: 2012-01-26 00:56
I hope you can find a way to make it work as bass clarinets are really a joy to play. Are you having trouble reaching all of the pinky keys or just the low-Eb?
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Author: Bob Bernardo
Date: 2012-01-26 01:03
You didn't say what grade you were in. Based totally on my opinion only, as a former college instructor, I'd only play the regular Bb clarinet for now. The Bb clarinet is a bear as it stands. You have to develop a decent sound getting your fingers moving fast, learning scales, the school music performances, plus your private instruction is a pretty big challenge and a big load to learn at a young age.
However, I am not against people in their early levels of clarinet studies consider playing the bass. In future years a good bass clarinet player is something bands and orchestras welcome; but the need for a really great Bb clarinet player as well as a great bass player should sort of go hand and hand.
For me, I think 3 or 4 years of playing the regular clarinet along with steady lessons, and practice may be a good time to pick up the bass. Just making changes to your mouth and wind structure between the horns takes practice to sound great on both horns.
Eddie Palanker has been teaching for many years at a very high level of university and music conservatory education and is one of the best or perhaps the best bass player within the top world symphony orchestras. If he pops in here, we really need to a really close look at his treasured advice. I think he's been playing both horns, along with the little Eb clarinet in the Baltimore Symphony for around 50 plus years with no sign of him to even think about retiring. Look for him in his 80's, he will still be playing.
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Author: kawallace91
Date: 2012-01-26 02:00
It's all the right pinky keys that are a problem. (I'm trying to use the left ones instead whenever possible!) The problem is that I can't raise the instrument enough for it to be comfortable in the right hand without getting the mouthpiece up too high. It would be nice if I could find a neck that would bring the mouthpiece down further, but I don't think anything like that exists. Necks do seem a bit pricey, but I think it would be worth the investment!
I'm in my junior year of college and have played B-flat for 10 years. Our professor tries to give everyone in our studio one semester of playing bass and one semester of playing E-flat in our ensembles before we graduate. Yesterday was my first time ever playing a bass, and I won't be surprised if I get assigned E-flat next fall! We still focus on B-flat in lessons. Some people take to the auxilliaries more than others, but I think it's a good time to get exposed to them.
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Author: DAVE
Date: 2012-01-26 04:10
Cassie Lee of the Nashville Symphony is a small woman who is an excellent clarinetist. For as long as I have known her she has refused to play the bass. She says she can't reach the keys. I wouldn't worry too much about it. Bass just may not be your thing. Think of it like this: some guys have HUGE fingers and can't play the Eb... maybe you should attack the Eb and own it!
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Author: SteveG_CT
Date: 2012-01-26 04:11
kawallace91 wrote:
> It's all the right pinky keys that are a problem. (I'm trying
> to use the left ones instead whenever possible!) The problem
> is that I can't raise the instrument enough for it to be
> comfortable in the right hand without getting the mouthpiece up
> too high. It would be nice if I could find a neck that would
> bring the mouthpiece down further, but I don't think anything
> like that exists. Necks do seem a bit pricey, but I think it
> would be worth the investment!
Seems like you need to go in the opposite direction from what most players are looking for in bass clarinet necks. Most modern necks have the mouthpiece tilted upward ~25-30 degrees as this is comfortable for most players. Unfortunately the upward angle does force the body of the instrument to be a bit lower so this only compounds the problem you are having.
You might do better with an old-style neck where the mouthpiece is nearly parallel to the floor. This would let you raise the body of the instrument up about an inch or 2 higher. It might be worthwhile to contact a few technicians to see if they have any used necks of this type that could be made to work on your instrument.
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2012-01-26 05:25
It's interesting because on another forum we just did some comparisons with different bass clarinets and their necks.
>> I reckon if the crook is redesigned with a tighter bend at the top so the mouthpiece is further down the instrument that should make things easier <<
>> You might do better with an old-style neck where the mouthpiece is nearly parallel to the floor. <<
Old Bundy
Neck angle: A=20°
Length from end of tenon to end of neck: 17cm
Distance from mouthpiece tip to G/D touchpiece: 63cm
Distance from mouthpeice tip to low Eb touchpiece: 66cm
Jupiter 675
Neck angle: A=30°
Length from end of tenon to end of neck: 16.5cm
Distance from mouthpiece tip to G/D touchpiece: 64cm
Distance from mouthpeice tip to low Eb touchpiece: 67.5cm
Buffet 1193
Neck angle: A=50°
Length from end of tenon to end of neck: 18cm
Distance from mouthpiece tip to G/D touchpiece: 62cm
Distance from mouthpeice tip to low Eb touchpiece: 65cm
From these, it seems that considering the instrument only, there isn't really that much of a correlation between neck angle and reach for right hand keys. The Jupiter is farthest with an average neck angle. The Buffet with sharper neck angle is closest. But, with a sharper neck angle you would usually hold the instrument a little farther away from you when playing.
BTW if I remember the Selmer Privilege with the curvier neck is more "squeezed" which makes it closer to the instrument body. I was going to measure it but couldn't yet.
But, the instruments with flatter neck angle are usually played more at an angle and less parallel to your body, so in a way it can be "closer". However you might find an instrument with a sharper neck is very comfortable to play holding it very close to your body.
By the way I also checked a very small person with the Buffet 1193. Not as small as you, but 158cm tall, with 153cm hand stretch and short fingers. Obviously taller than you, but this person had no problem reaching any of the keys with some to spare... which of course doesn't mean much for you.
What model bass clarinet is it that you are playing? Are you sitting or standing (or both)?
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Author: clariniano
Date: 2012-01-26 05:56
Hi, I also have played bass, but find the little finger keys quite a bit of a stretch, and while I am of about average height for a woman, I have small hands, on the piano can only reach an octave in the right hand and a ninth in the left, and I think I tried a few different bass clarinet necks, best thing to do is have a talk with the teacher, show the extreme difficulties you would have and try to seek an exemption from playing it. On the other hand, having small hands will help on the E flat soprano a LOT. Even with the normal B flat/A instruments, I find Yamahas MUCH easier on my hands than the Buffets, especially in terms of the placement of the little finger keys.
Meri
Please check out my website at: http://donmillsmusicstudio.weebly.com and my blog at: http://clariniano.wordpress.com
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2012-01-26 10:18
Only recently I did some work on a Yamaha YCL-250 for a player who had trouble reaching the RH pinky keys. They're much further away from the RH3 tonehole chimney than my Selmers, so I used my Selmers as a guide when reangling all the RH pinky touchpieces on the Yamaha, even filing the end of the lower RH ring key pillars down to allow the RH F#/C# touchpiece to come in much tighter.
I'm sure the keywork and touchpiece positions on basses can be adjusted fairly easily to suit anyone - most clarinets and bass clarinets are fine for players with long enough arms and average sized hands (I'm lucky in having fairly large hands but that does cause problems playing Eb clarinet), but any that do have keys beyond reach can be adjusted or altered to make them ergonomically better.
But a bass clarinet crook with a tighter bend where it joins the body and the main part running down close to the back (see http://uebel-klarinetten.de/fauebel/klarinetten/bass-klarinetten/) will definitely lift the instrument off the ground more.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: davyd
Date: 2012-01-26 13:02
Would playing alto clarinet instead of bass clarinet be an option? I would think that in 'wind symphony' as opposed to 'concert band', scoring for the alto clarinet would be more prevalent.
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2012-01-26 13:33
Maybe a flexible neck is the solution?
I agree with Chris - most can probably be gained with a suitably bent neck. (Shouldn't be too expensive for a single-vent instrument, should it?)
--
Ben
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2012-01-26 14:58
Try pulling out the tuning slide in the neck (asuming there is one), which will raise the right hand little finger keys when you lengthen the floor peg.
Josef Horak showed me how to sit forward in the chair, brace my right heel against the right front leg of the chair, put the floor peg in the intersection and angle the bass to the left. You may also need a neck strap to hold the instrument's weight, but it will improve the angle at which your right little finger hits the keys.
The "tenor sax position," outside your right leg, can be taken to an extreme, with the bass practically laid across your lap. If you make it look silly enough, the band director may overrule your teacher.
If you can't get comfortable, go to a doctor and complain that your right hand and wrist, and even your shoulder and neck, are hurting all the time, even when you're not playing. Your health is more important than your teacher's preferences, so lay it on thick, complaining that the pain awakens you at night, and that you're having trouble holding a pen.
A doctor's letter saying that your right wrist is in danger of injury will get you back on Bb in no time. If this doesn't work, faint during rehearsal. If it works for opera singers, it will work for you. Despite the progress with women's rights, male teachers and conductors are still deathly afraid of the delicate nature of women, and you can work this to your advantage. Tell them it increases menstrual cramps. Who are they to know?
Actually, the right hand position on contra is better than on bass. If you have the breath for it, volunteer to play contra. For me (and I'm big), contra is physically easier than bass.
Ken Shaw
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Author: kawallace91
Date: 2012-01-27 12:55
Thanks for all of the input. To answer some of your questions:
The instrument is a Buffet Prestige with the low E-flat. (Of course, the instrument itself is having some issues after sitting in a locker while were on break for a month, so hopefully getting it in working order will help!) I'm always sitting while playing.
About alto clarinet and contrabass: those do show up in our literature sometimes, but it's always in addition to bass. While everyone gets a semester of bass clarinet and a semester of E-flat, not everyone gets experience with the other auxilliaries.
It sounds like experimenting with a different neck is the only option. I'll continue trying to find a comfortable playing position too. I know holding it out to the side will look ridiculous, but fortunately, I'm in the second row! When I took woodwind methods last year, I had the same fears about playing the bassoon and figured I wouldn't physically be able to play it. I ended up playing it in our concert band the following semester...the bassoon professor said I was born to play it! I think the right hand is more spread on the bassoon, but because of the way it's held, the right arm doesn't have to stretch quite so much. I know that my right hand can reach everything, but my arm being too short is the problem with the bass clarinet.
I know that I keep saying my professor wants me to play it, but the truth is, I want to play it too! It's stressful right now, but I think the experience will be valuable. I certainly don't plan to become a professional bass clarinetist, but I think it'll be good knowledge for any form of teaching (I'm a music education major, although I'm more interested in clarinet specifically), good ensemble experience to play the bass part, and one of my friends said it helped her with breath support on B-flat. It's one semester out of my life that I'll be able to learn a lot from.
That being said, obviously I plan to listen to my body, and if it just isn't working out, I won't continue. I won't need a doctor's note or any excuses; my professors are very understanding. I already gave one of the more challenging parts away to our most skilled bass clarinetist. My conductor told me specifically then that he wants me to be comfortable. My professor has also said that if it's too much, we'll switch things around, but she appreciates that I'm trying. Everyone seems to have some negative feelings towards the bass at first, but most of them come to like it. I have some time to mess around with is this weekend, and we have three rehearsals next week, so I'll get a better idea of whether or not I can handle it for a whole semester.
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2012-01-27 13:54
>> It sounds like experimenting with a different neck is the only option. <<
There are at least three versions of Buffet Prestige necks, probably four (can't remember exactly), so which one depends on which buffet Prestige you have.
Re the link bill28099 posted, I started that thread 7 years ago asking about an issue jumping 12ths in certain cases. It's important to add that eventually I found the neck angle didn't have anything to do with the problem. It was simply a coincidence that instruments I've tried with a higher angled neck had the problem, which was from the register vent hole. Several players (some at the highest level) have enlarged and/or changed the vent hole on their Buffet bass clarinets. You can read my experiment here http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/read.html?f=20&i=839&t=839
>> I know holding it out to the side will look ridiculous <<
Eventhough it's not?
At least a few top level players play with the instrument to their side. Just because very few do it doesn't mean anything about it being good, bad, ridiculous, etc. in any particualr situation. As long as there are no negatives (and in the case of some players, there aren't!), no problem!
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Author: davyd
Date: 2012-01-27 15:44
Playing the bass clarinet off to the side (in "saxophone position") can be necessary for other reasons. A former female colleague started to play the instrument while in a Catholic School ensemble, and was taught the side position for reasons of modesty and propriety. Something like that, anyway. (I wonder how a girl would play the cello under such circumstances.)
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Author: JEG ★2017
Date: 2012-01-27 21:24
When you play the bass, are your knuckles parallel to the instrument? In my years of trial-and-error I've found that proper hand position can make your fingers seem "longer". And not everybody can instantly develop the proper hand position.
I am also on the short side - between 5'4" and 5'5" and have played a Selmer low-C for over 40 years. My hands are small though I've never had trouble playing the bass. As a matter of fact, I had a friend who had the left-hand pinky keys of his bass extended, though his hands were larger than mine. And I have to deal with chair size; whenever I play in a new venue I always check out the chairs to find the highest ones, or else bring a phone book.
It may be that your hands are actually too small. But try to get some to help you explore all possibilities before you give up.
I knew a girl in high school who played bass off to the side. She was in NYSSMA All-State for two years. So if it works, do it!
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Author: Loliver
Date: 2012-01-27 22:40
I know it may sound hard, as it is a rented instrument, but have you considered perhaps putting something on the thumbrest, so that thumb, and therefore little finger, is slightly lower. I had to have this done on my Cor Anglais, and was also unable to play bass clarinet (boohoo), even though I'm not short, I'm over 6'7...
Ideally having the thumbrest lowered would be useful, but perhaps sticking a piece of cork or something may help...
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2012-01-30 07:00
>> A former female colleague started to play the instrument while in a Catholic School ensemble, and was taught the side position for reasons of modesty and propriety. <<
So sometimes playing with the instrument to the side is ridiculous!
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Author: Crazylyma
Date: 2014-01-05 07:42
My daughter who is very short and small fingered plays the Contra Bass fine. She started with the reg clarinet, then went to bass, then to Contra...now on her own time...Trombone. She often has problems with the pinky keys. She has mastered it....I have now idea how since the instrument is bigger than she is. If you have and open mind and want to do it...you can.
Kris
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Author: claire Inet
Date: 2014-01-05 16:28
I'm nearly 6' tall and I struggled a bit with the length of the bass as I'm very short waisted (long legs). It's taken me awhile to get used to the feel on having my right arm/wrist pressed into my right leg (downward). (I took up bass maybe 6 weeks ago after a 35 year hiatus from soprano). After a few weeks, it doesn't seem to be a problem anymore, although the physics haven't changed.
Post Edited (2014-01-05 11:28)
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Author: Steven Ocone
Date: 2014-01-05 16:40
Many middle school kids play the bass clarinet. Perhaps a coach would be helpful.
Steve Ocone
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