 The Clarinet BBoard
|
Author: kev182
Date: 2012-01-15 06:05
On one of my relatively old Bb clarinets's upper bore measures quite a bit larger than other R13s I have measured. The pitch on this specific clarinet is also quite a bit higher. Would a larger bore cause this sharpness in pitch?
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: rtmyth
Date: 2012-01-15 13:31
Check the internet for details, and BB directly.
richard smith
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2012-01-15 14:31
It's the host of all factors that get your end resultant pitch. The clarinet in question with the big bore was obviously built to produce a higher pitch but the bore size was ONLY ONE factor. It should follow that the more volume of air involved, the LOWER the pitch but you can have a big bore clarinet with a much shorter length.
Of course there are also many quirks to the acoustics of the clarinet (as a stopped cylinder) which should get more detailed postings to follow (one weird affect is dangling a string down the length of the bore achieving a pitch one half step lower !!!).
...............Paul Aviles
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: bethmhil
Date: 2012-01-15 19:18
I agree with Paul... there are a number of things that affect pitch of an instrument, and bore size is only one small factor. My Tosca has a considerably large bore, and I had to buy a slightly shorter barrel to compensate for the lower pitch. My 60's era R13 has a smaller bore than my Tosca, and the pitch is extremely high-- this more has to do with age, but you get the point. Pitch can go all over the place with any clarinet, whether the bore be big or small.
For future reference... When thinking about just bore size, the pitch tendencies go the opposite direction than you implied. When one is in a climate with high(er) humidity or temperature, the bore swells, making it smaller. Pitch then goes up. In the opposite situation, the walls of the instrument become smaller, and the bore then gets larger. The pitch then is lowered.
BMH
Illinois State University, BME and BM Performance
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Chris P
Date: 2012-01-15 20:06
In cold conditions the air becomes more dense which makes the pitch flatter and warmer air is less dense resulting in going sharp.
With mouthpieces, one with a large bore will play flatter than one with a narrow bore.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: cigleris
Date: 2012-01-15 21:06
Bethmhil and Paul,
How is it that I can play perfectly in tune on my Peter Eaton Elites which are the same bore as a Boosey and Hawkes 1010 (which is large bore) if both your statements are correct?
Peter Cigleris
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: rtmyth
Date: 2012-01-15 21:42
Excellent, detailed discussion, by an expert, is the book Clarinet Acoustics, by O. Lee Gibson.
richard smith
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: bethmhil
Date: 2012-01-15 21:52
As I said, the pitch tendencies can be unique with any clarinet, regardless of bore size.
BMH
Illinois State University, BME and BM Performance
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2012-01-15 23:29
The Booseys are a good example of the 'shorter' clarinet. When placing my 1010 next to an R13 you really see the difference in length........ at least 5mm just eyeballing it.
................Paul Aviles
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: clarnibass
Date: 2012-01-16 06:34
>> How is it that I can play perfectly in tune on my Peter Eaton Elites which are the same bore as a Boosey and Hawkes 1010 if both your statements are correct? <<
It's not because both statements are correct or not. It's because the tone holes, which are (obviously) a significant part in charge of intonation, are made in relation to the bore.
Consider an extreme example. On a "regular" (I use mine as an example) clarinet the tone hole for the note A3 is approx 41cm from the tip of the mouthpiece. Compare the tone hole for A4 on bass clarinet, which gives the same pitch, and it is more than 1cm lower (i.e. farther away from the mouthpiece). Move the A3 tone hole on the clarinet more than 1cm lower and it will be absurdly flat. Difference being... the bore.
But regardless, I don't think both statements are correct.
>> When one is in a climate with high(er) humidity or temperature, the bore swells, making it smaller. Pitch then goes up. In the opposite situation, the walls of the instrument become smaller, and the bore then gets larger. The pitch then is lowered. <<
AFAIK it is as Chris said, the warmer air causes the pitch to become sharper. See this example using even much thinner "air" with helium to play!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bunF0-ObdpQ
Take the mouthpiece and barrel and play. Then take a small piece of paper that will "stick" itself to the inner walls of the barrel, almost the entire circumference. Make sure it is not too long to make a smaller tone hole. You can see the pitch is lower. So, the opposite of what Beth wrote above.
Post Edited (2012-01-16 14:13)
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Chris P
Date: 2012-01-16 07:23
Instead of investing in a C clarinet, buy a bottle of helium - much cheaper!
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2012-01-16 13:38
If the pitch argument isn't bad enough, the assertions of the affect on tone color will be even harder to sort through.
In my experience, the LARGEST bore instruments represent an extreme and they to ME seem more diffuse in sound compared to more compact bore clarinets.
The other example I had in the years I've been watching this is the design changes within the Wurlitzers from the mid-eighties through present. It has been said the early to mid eighties models suffered from being a bit too large and subsequent models have gone back to different designs of slightly smaller sized bores which have met with more widely accepted praise. Perhaps 'Marlboroughman' would like to comment on that.
................Paul Aviles
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: MarlboroughMan
Date: 2012-01-16 14:12
Thanks Paul.
As you know, the Wurlitzer family doesn't release 'specs' for their bore sizes or design. So any information you get is bound to be anecdotal (including what I give).
For what it's worth, I've played on Charles Stier's set of Wurlitzers which date from the mid-80s, and I've gotten measurements from them. They are large bore, but slightly smaller than my Fritz Wurlitzer's from the early '50s.
The most recent set of 185s that we sold had a bore size almost identical to mine, so it would seem the opposite of what you suggest: the bore is larger again.
Of the two previous Wurlitzers (Fritz and his son Herbert), Fritz's instruments were the larger, louder instruments. Herbert fine tuned the design and, it is generally believed, made the bore a little smaller. Charles and I believe that this current generation of Wurlitzers is intent upon uniting the visions of the father and grandfather. The current models seem to retain the timbre of Herbert's instruments with the larger bore and power of Fritz's. Don't ask me how they do it: I don't know--and they aren't telling: Family secrets!
Be advised, however, that trying to guess the bore changes and dimensions of Wurlitzer clarinets is an invitation to madness: you'd have to gain access to all of their instruments over a fifty year period, measure each one of them, and try to find patterns or principles at work. They make very small design changes, based upon many factors, and only over many years.
Eric
******************************
The Jazz Clarinet
http://thejazzclarinet.blogspot.com/
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Bob Phillips
Date: 2012-01-16 15:46
Attachment: R13 A with Oversized uppper joint upper bore.jpg (99k)
I had an unfortunate R13 A clarinet that had the top of the bore in the upper joint reamed oversize. Evidently this happened to a number Buffet As and is known to a few folks.
The result was that the left hand clarion got increasingly sharp approaching Thumb C. In the case of my horn, it was about 40-cents sharp
EDIT:
Patty of Taplin-Weir guided my experimentation. Best "fix" was a severely reverse taper barrel. The upper bore measured 0.567-inches at the tenon.
Bob Phillips
Post Edited (2012-01-16 15:54)
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Alseg
Date: 2012-01-16 16:26
The original poster asked
<<<On one of my relatively old Bb clarinets's upper bore measures quite a bit larger than other R13s I have measured. The pitch on this specific clarinet is also quite a bit higher. Would a larger bore cause this sharpness in pitch?>>>
Overall, the answer "trends towards" YES.
Notice that narrower bore insturments (such as the Selmer Recital )are shorter in length than their wider bore counterparts.
This answer is for the instrument, not the mouthpiece.
Former creator of CUSTOM CLARINET TUNING BARRELS by DR. ALLAN SEGAL
-Where the Sound Matters Most(tm)-
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Ed Palanker
Date: 2012-01-16 16:42
There are so many variables involved including the MP you use. My suggestion is that you try out several different barrels and sizes and find which one gives you the best results. You also have to consider that some players voice certian registers higher or lower than others. I've had students that voiced the throat tones flat or the hgh B-C sharp but when I played them I was right on. Sometimes it was their MP, sometimes it was their voicing, but sometimes it was the clarinet. Yes, I did eventually correct it. ESP eddiesclarinet.com
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Chris P
Date: 2012-01-16 19:36
I bought a Vandoren "13" Series M15 and struggled to get it to play up to pitch. Rather than shortening the barrel I took around 1.5mm off the tenon and shoulder to shorten the mouthpiece which did the trick. I asked Jon Steward up at Howarth if enlarging the bore would raise the pitch, but he said not to as that would make it play flatter still. Strange that enlarging only the mouthpiece bore has the opposite effect of enlarging the instrument's bore.
The old string down the bore trick to flatten a clarinet has the opposite effect on recorders (and I presume flutes as well). I put a flute cleaning rod up the bore of a treble recorder assuming it would flatten it, but it sharpened it instead. Do the same on a clarinet and the induced narrowing of the bore will flatten it.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
The Clarinet Pages
|
 |
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
