 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: C.Elizabeth07
Date: 2012-01-02 01:26
Sorry if this has been asked before, I searched for it but couldn't find anything...
I'm working on this excerpt currently, but my tongue gets so bogged down/heavy. I'm trying to get it be lighter, to kind of bounce or dance along (as would sound appropriate with the excerpt.) But for some reason I am having a severe mental block.
I can get the effect I'm looking for at slower tempo's but around dotted quarter = 66 it gets very "thuddy". I'm playing the 8th's staccato but the 16th's legato so they won't sound pecky, I've gone slowly, practiced it slurred and with just the air, I have tried several techniques I read in a book I have (Clarinet Secrets by Michele Gringas), I try to focus on my air, keeping everything right in the front of my mouth. For about 3 weeks I have been trying everything in my arsenal but I cannot get the consistency I need.
I was wondering if anyone had any ideas, tips, suggestions I could try so I can break through this. So far all I've broken through today is another metronome... when I flung it across the room in frustration!
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Author: Bob Phillips
Date: 2012-01-02 05:56
I was going to suggest Michel's vid.
Isn't it great that metronomes are (almost) expendably cheap these days?
Bob Phillips
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Author: Buster
Date: 2012-01-02 07:16
A few general thoughts:
1.) The tongue is a muscle; it does need rest. Perhaps in the process of slowly increasing the tempo, your tongue may be losing some of its "poise", generating the "thuddiness." Go against common-sense and only practice it slowly for a few days with the quality you desire. Put the excerpt away for a day or 2, come back and play it at tempo.
2.) Some of the changes in 'articulative' quality in this excerpt are due to the varying resistances of the notes involved. I have had success addressing this in varied ways.
A simple one: At whatever tempo is comfortable, simply articulate the rhythm of the entire excerpt on ![[A4]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/a4.gif) , then ![[B4]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/b4.gif) , and finally ![[C5]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/c5.gif) with the quality you desire. Maintain a constant dynamic with a constant level of abdominal flexion.
Then, still maintaining a constant dynamic and ab flexion, repeat, alternating the 3 notes i.e. A-B-A-B-A etc.., then A-C-, B-C-, A-B-C-B-A. Simply maintain the abs and hear that the correct amount of air is delivered for each note.
(If you truly wish to know what is occurring re. ab-flexion/air: http://test.woodwind.org/Databases/lookup.php/Klarinet/1999/04/000760.txt)
3.) Also, the change from a "staccato" articulation to a "legato" can elicit an unobserved change in tongue motion that muddies the quality, or causes the tempo to be unsteady. For some, the knowledge that this can occur can at times helps "cure" the ailment.
What I have done when this sort of problem creeps in;
(Playing the written notes and rhythms; starting with the air prepared and tongue on the reed) Tut- stop and remove the tongue from the reed but maintain the air and ab flexion- release air -ut-ut-ut-ut | ut-ut-ut etc...
or more clearly: Tut-pause-ut-ut-ut-ut | -ut-ut-ut| Tut-pause-ut-ut-ut-ut|-ut-ut-ut (I realize this is very difficult to explain in this written medium, so I apologize for any inherent lack of clarity.) What I'm trying to get at when I do this is viewing then end of a note to be the start of the next; or the stopping of note '1' is the beginning of note '2', etc... I find myself attempting to flip my view-point around and look at the articulation as end oriented in this exercise.
On the surface this appears to be Dr. Gingras "Rocket tongue" exercise, but the air stream is maintained in the ab/diaphragm system (per the previous link) with no decrescendo as can be heard in her on-line clip.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6fi4G1JwvKE
4.) Play your scales with the Scherzo articulated rhythm and put the excerpt away for 3 or 4 days.
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There are a myriad of ways to practice that we often don't even consider. Please do not interpret this to be my "prescription" for you; if anything, let it be a nudge to "think out of the box" when you come to a personal road-block, finding your own path around it.
The way we learn and ingrain actions is quite complex. Equally complex is the manner in which the brain "solidifies" neural pathways, some of which occurs during sleep. I am not a neurologist and do not claim to be truly knowledgeable in this arena- I have simply read a bit on the subject, much of it in the arena of sports.
If you have access to The Clarinet magazine from September, there is an article speaking of the Contextual Interference effect on learning. It is not fully fleshed-out, due to the medium in which it is published, but can spur some further reading.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Varied_practice Also loosely enlightens the process.
Much can be read if so desired: http://scholar.google.com/scholar?q=contextual+interference+practice&hl=en&as_sdt=0&as_vis=1&oi=scholart
Hope this helps some, or confuses you properly
-Jason
Post Edited (2012-01-02 07:19)
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Author: gwie
Date: 2012-01-02 07:48
One idea that helped me a lot with this piece was this concept: don't think about moving the tongue as fast as you can, but rather, think about pulling it *away* from the reed quickly (like "hot potato").
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Author: John Peacock
Date: 2012-01-02 13:49
A bad worker blames their tools - but this sort of thing can be made easier or harder depending on the mouthpiece. I know I've been through mouthpiece changes that hugely affected the ease of such light articulation. If you've hit a block, it may be that this isn't your fault, and that you have a mouthpiece that sets a limit to what's possible, however much you practice. Have you tried it with a different mouthpiece, or heard another player achieve the right result on your setup? Although one shouldn't get obsessed with the idea that the one true mouthpiece can cure all playing problems without effort, it's true that many people play on mouthpieces that are significantly imperfect; pieces like this one are the stress test that can reveal the need for change.
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Author: Tobin
Date: 2012-01-02 14:07
"...pieces like this one are the stress test that can reveal the need for change [in equipment]."
It can also display that your underlying fundamental in articulative/embouchure areas is flawed and in need of repair. There's no getting around it -- that's a tough excerpt.
James
Gnothi Seauton
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2012-01-02 14:27
....and here is where I suggest 'double tonguing.' I clearly have a peak speed which is pretty pathetic but I'm able to do wonders with 'double tonguing.'
The is merely alternating the regular stop on the reed (TEE) with a stop further back on the tongue against the roof of the mouth (KEE).
So it would go like this: TEE, TEE-KEE TEE-KEE, TEE TEE TEE etc.
Keep in mind the KEEs will never sound exactly like the TEEs (this is exactly what Julian Bliss said in his internet interview and why he doesn't do it, but he also single tongues faster than God).
...................Paul Aviles
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Author: Ed
Date: 2012-01-02 14:40
A few thoughts- Try beginning the first note with a "ha", using only air rather than the tongue. Sometimes the tongue can bog down right from the start. The air attack can serve to jump start the flow of notes.
Try to tongue just 2 notes as lightly and quickly as possible, then 3, 4, etc. Stop and take a break when you are fatigued or begin to slow down.
See how lightly you can touch the reed, aiming to just flick the tongue.
Often when playing slower the tongue can be heavier, which sounds fine at a moderate tempo, but as tempos increase and tension creeps in it will bog down. Do not tense the tongue.
Be sure to have a reed that is well balanced and responsive at the tip. It needs to respond with only a light puff of air.
If all else fails, it may be helpful to attempt the technique that Clark Fobes writes about here
http://www.clarkwfobes.com/articles/SyntheticSpeedTonguing.htm
which is kind of a synthesis of double and single.
One key is to be very patient no matter what. Some folks just naturally have a fast tongue and others don't. Move the metronome only little bits at a time. It may take some time and progress may be slow at times. Often we plateau before progressing.
Good luck
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Author: Ryan25
Date: 2012-01-02 17:49
Two things to try that might help:
1. Play the whole excerpt just as you would normally but on long B or low E. This helped me years ago getting this excerpt under control because of the added resistance. I don't think there is pedagogical value in this but it makes the actual pitches of the excerpt easier to deal with when articulating lightly and quickly.
2. Another thing that is helpful is to get away from the technique of the excerpt. Sing the flute or violin part in your head while you are playing. Focus on the phrasing of the excerpt instead of the mechanics of the tongue. Often times the phrasing or music will help solve technique problems.
Lastly, you can build speed with your tongue by working at it everyday with a metronome. A useful method for metronome practice on this except is to jump the tempo around. Don't just notch up one click at a time.
Try twice at 64 then jump the metronome to 78 then drop it back to 68 then to 52 and then back to your comfortable base of 64. Keep trying to increase your comfortable base by jumping around.
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Author: clarinetguy ★2017
Date: 2012-01-02 19:33
There are a lot of good ideas here. I've never had much success with tee-kee double tonguing, but it does work well for some people.
Here's one more idea worth trying. I've written about it before, but I'm happy to repeat it. Most clarinet teachers suggest tonguing with the "t" or "d" syllable, but Roger McKinney suggests using "n" or "nu." http://www.tcnj.edu/~mckinney/tonguing.htm
I don't usually tongue this way, but I find it works very well for fast tonguing. A variation is to move the tongue back and forth slightly while using the "n" syllable.
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Author: C.Elizabeth07
Date: 2012-01-02 20:29
Thanks for the suggestions everyone, I'm gonna experiment with it later today and see how it all goes!
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Author: bethmhil
Date: 2012-01-02 23:22
Ah, Mendelssohn... I have been revisiting this over my winter break myself.
Here are my suggestions:
1.) Lightness Lightness Lightness.
In your warmup routine, try this exercise:
On an open G, as legato as possible, Rhythm: (o= 16th note, l= quarter note: ooool ooool oooo oooo ooool, and set the metronome to quarter = 100-120, whatever you're most comfortable with. Then slowly work up the metronome to whatever tempo makes your tongue fatigue the fastest. I have found this exercise to be very beneficial to warming up for a lot of articulated passages. In addition to training oneself to articulate faster in general, it emphasizes the tip of the tongue touching the tip of the reed in the lightest manner possible. This will transfer over to repertoire, I promise.
2.) Fingers Fingers Fingers.
If you are at all like me and have ever experienced debilitating habits with your left hand, fix them, simple as that. Tape your fingers to the keys to train them, hypnosis, whatever. I played as principal clarinetist in ISU's chamber orchestra as a freshman, and we played this. At that time, my left index finger was still hopping up to the A key and my left fingers were still flailing out when playing Ab. You can imagine, that was anything but my best performance. Nowadays, with those left hand issues fixed, it shocks me how light and fluid the piece feels.
3.) Energy Energy Energy.
It is easy to get hung up on the 16th note scalar passages/arpeggios, especially when going up and down the break. You want all the notes to speak, you want articulation and fingers to match perfectly... and so, your articulation gets heavy and things don't work very well.
My remedy for this is to push through the lines. Not necessarily in volume, but in energy. Energy is different for everyone-- for me, energy is air and embouchure pressure. I was having a problem just yesterday where nothing seemed very "clean"-- so, I solved the problem by pushing more air through the articulated lines and applying just a tad more pressure in my embouchure. Problem solved almost immediately.
Out of these 3 things, Energy is the most important. You can make anything sound good with energy, seriously.
BMH
Illinois State University, BME and BM Performance
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Author: Buster
Date: 2012-01-03 01:23
bethmhil wrote in part:
> Energy is the most important. You can
> make anything sound good with energy, seriously.
Really? That is quite a strong statement to make without support. And on the surface would seem to contradict the lightness exercise elucidated in #1. Does it not take more energy to "flail" the fingers in #2?- though improperly placed energy perhaps.
Perhaps if you exchange "energy" with "properly placed tension" a better correlation can be drawn.
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(First, tension needs to be defined as to what it actually is: simply the contraction of a muscle. No negative connotations involved.)
Proper tension, or actually muscular opposition, is what makes it possible to control the shape and action of the fingers. (Through the interaction of the flexors/extensors present in the hand and arms.)
Proper tension in the tongue, placing it in the "ideal" position, is what allows it to maintain its poise and "lightly" contact the reed. Obviously the "ideal" position is a highly personalized notion, but make no mistake, muscular tension is quite involved.
Abdominal tension, coupled with the opposition of the diaphragm, is what allows fine control of air delivery- what reads as is being accomplished in #3.
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Proper tension/energy is a quite important aspect of performance. Yet a danger arises if not accurately fleshed-out.
Quite often, improperly adding "energy" to a passage, which transfers over to the way a passage can sound, is counter-productive.
For instance, take the articulated ascending run beginning on E4, mm. 15-16. in the Mendelssohn. Clearly we need follow the printed diminuendo, very often coupled with a lightening in sound quality. Expending energy internally, properly, is often needed to execute this. However a danger arises if this transfers to the external, audible side.
"Pushing" forward through the line, here, may be quite counter-productive to the feel of the passage; and thus the character of the 'excerpt' as a whole.
-Jason
[edited for clarity]
Post Edited (2012-01-03 01:26)
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Author: bethmhil
Date: 2012-01-03 02:33
You are completely right-- the 'energy' I am speaking of is a 'positive' tension. It is a 'tension' that can be present in many places of the body or air, and should enhance the line, not hinder it. It is meant to add focus to the line and tone. But like I said, it does not necessarily mean more volume, more pressure, or more tension, for that matter. It is more just a feeling of added intensity to the line. You are also right in saying that it would contradict dynamics written in the piece. I should have clarified that it is more of a psychological feeling than a physical action or change.
And, I will also clarify this point further-- I believe that in order for a student or a professional to make music, energy has to always be there. I once had a teacher who taught all her students the "More air!" concept. I understand the importance of blowing through the clarinet completely, but creating music is not just about air. Energy, intensity, and focus must be there always.
And... I mean for #2 to be what NOT to do! Flailing fingers is bad!
BMH
Illinois State University, BME and BM Performance
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Author: hartt
Date: 2012-01-03 03:20
christine..........
the above suggestion for Clark's Synthetic Tonguing is a good .
However, it is a combo of two tonguing techniques; single & double.
Ken Shaw has posted some invaluable approaches to tonguing. Do a search.
(try searching the Keepers section first..........tonguing/ken shaw)
Now, specific to your desire and the Mendy pc, go to you tube and do a search for Michele Gingras. She has numerous videos and one in particular addresses Speed tonguing (she mentions the Mendy pc)
It is a single tonguing approach
you may want to consider buying her book. It contains a CD that has the UTUBE videos and more. I received my copy as a gift from a dear friend and find it an excellent learning tool.
here is the link for her UTube tonguing video
(copy/paste into a browser bar)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6fi4G1JwvKE
dennis
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Author: C.Elizabeth07
Date: 2012-01-03 04:39
Dennis,
I actually already own her book and have seen many of her video's already on youtube.
I actually found the suggestions above very very helpful and hugely productive today. I have a ton of very "solid" "tried and true" "common place" practice methods that I went through and I just needed to change things up to break through whatever barrier was there.
Actually it was Busters advice that I found most helpful and it is actually a technique very similar to one listed in Michele Gringas' book. The way he worded it just made more sense to me initially and worked much better then trying to understand her explanation/model. (Not to say that what she said wasn't right or didn't work, just that the wording and the explanation didn't work personally for me.)
But thanks, I'll be sure to check out those other posts soon,
And to everyone else, THANK YOU! Huge improvements while experimenting with some of your suggestions. I needed to approach things from a new angle and your feed back definitely helped me look at things in a new light! My metronome survived today's practice sessions....
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Author: C.Elizabeth07
Date: 2012-01-03 06:31
I mean to offense by it, I actually like many of her videos, I found some of her advice to be extremely helpful in the past. I wasn't trying to be facetious with my response, I will be looking at the other links and posts you suggested, so I'm not sure why you made the comment you did.
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Author: salzo
Date: 2012-01-03 19:40
Practice only the first note, in tempo. Make sure you are starting that note correctly, and most important, make sure you are finishing it correctly, by ending the note with your tongue. THe next note (g#) is started upon the release of the tongue from the first note. Practice only the first two notes, at tempo. Once you have a tonguing concept down, play up to the first note in the second measure. Do this a few times, again making sure you are tonguing properly, and that it sounds good(if you are tonguing properly, it should sound good) Once you have that down, the rest is easy(well not really, but the tonguing concept does not change).
Personally, I have found that my problem with the scerzo, reveals itself on the very first note. If I start bad, I am finished. On the flip side, if I make sure that the first note is executed cleanly, then the rest falls into place.
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Author: hartt
Date: 2012-01-04 02:21
christine
my comment was not directed at you or your response. It was a simple statement directed at no person other than myself.
back to observing from afar
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Author: 2E
Date: 2012-01-04 03:38
Apologies for not offering any real 'help' as such but I just thought the original poster might find this quite amazing.
Watch the first 20 seconds of this video, it'll blow your mind haha.
2E
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Author: C.Elizabeth07
Date: 2012-01-04 05:45
ah! the way it just dances along so effortlessly.... patience christine, patience... lol
Thanks for that video!
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