 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: HANGARDUDE
Date: 2011-12-15 15:49
Everyone knows most bass clarinets have metal bells. But recently I saw some unsual bells. These bells are giant wooden clarinet bells attached to metal U-tubes. Here are two of them at http://www.photographersdirect.com/buyers/stockphoto.asp?imageid=2539149 (sorry I can't attach the photo itself because I need to pay if I do so)
You can see them at the back.
Are they simply for appearance or do they have something to do with the tone? And where can we get them?
Josh
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Author: Gandalfe
Date: 2011-12-15 15:58
I would think most techs with lathe skills could do this for you. I also don't think that if the inner dimensions are the same there would be any difference in sound.
Jim and Suzy
Pacifica Big Band
Seattle, Washington
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2011-12-15 15:59
Rossi offer them as do some others.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: SteveG_CT
Date: 2011-12-15 16:47
Gandalfe wrote:
> I would think most techs with lathe skills could do this for
> you. I also don't think that if the inner dimensions are the
> same there would be any difference in sound.
>
I would think the most difficult part would be finding a large enough piece of wood that didn't have any fatal defects. Judging from the bell on my bass you would need a piece that is ~6 inches in diameter and close to 1 ft long. Not exactly the easiest pieces of stock to source.
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2011-12-15 18:41
We had a huge and contentious discussion about wooden bass clarinet bells on this forum some time ago. I take the position that they make no significant difference in the overall sound of the instrument, but some other folks (most if not all of whom had paid very big bucks to purchase one) were of the opposite opinion. Search and ye shall find.
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Author: Ed Palanker
Date: 2011-12-15 19:43
It's always interesting to see myself quoted, especially from something on my website. It is true about my gold plating but that's when gold was about 1/3 the price it is now, it's gotten ridiculous. I did find that the wooden bell that I tried from Backun made a difference, I didn't have it long enough to determine just how much since it was just for a few minutes. I know some players that have them and they say it does make certain registers more focused. I suspect that it is difference for every player on different instruments. The only way you can really know is if you have to opportunity to try one for more than just a few minutes. I have no regret about going for the Gold. The longer I've had it that way the more I've grown to like it. Since I wrote the article I had a student come in with the same model as mine so I was able to try the neck and bell of her's and compare it to my gold neck and bell. We both agreed that the gold was warmer, especially in the upper register and on the break and low notes. Maybe not a hugh difference but we both agreed. I'm not suggestion you do it at $1700 plus an ounce though. ESP eddiesclarinet.com
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Author: LCL
Date: 2011-12-16 14:24
Got Morrie to gold plate the neck and got the wooden bell permanently affixed last summer. It made a huge difference, in my opinion and in the opinion of our directors of our community band. The sound is richer and more resonant, again in what we think we hear. For others, I can't say, and my horn in a 1997 Leblanc Model 430 low C.
Thanks,
LCL
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Author: HANGARDUDE
Date: 2011-12-22 16:12
Attachment: P1000098.jpg (26k)
Attachment: SF_bass_cl_02.jpg (522k)
Thank you for all you responses! By the way, I have a few questions to ask. In the existing photos, the Morrie Backun bell looks really massive( just look how small the U-tube is compared to the bell). Does Morrie have other sizes availible? And(since my bell doesn't have one) where exactly is the vent hole? Is it a common feature on most bells of professional basses?
And I found another wooden bass bell. It's made by the clarinet making genius Stephen Fox This time it's 100% made of wood, even the U-tube!Anda straight version is alsoavailible. However, it is made for basses with smaller German bores. Don't know if they have a bell availible that fits on the more common French bore basses.
Oh, I forgot to introduce myself(since I'm new here). I am Josh and I'm 14. I play both the Bb soprano and Bb bass clarinets, though I play the bass clarinet more often. I'm currently the primary bass clarinettist of the school band of St.Stephen's College, Hong Kong. I am very interested in woodwinds, particularly clarinets!
Josh
Post Edited (2021-01-21 02:46)
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2011-12-22 17:14
As far as I'm aware, the only large production model Boehm system basses to low C with bell vents are the Buffet Prestige basses made since 1999 - Yamaha, Selmer and Leblanc low C basses don't have the bell vent to my knowledge (I'll have to have a better look at the Privilege bass to be certain).
The bell vent is there to equalise the tone quality of the low C with the other notes instead of having it issue wholly from the bell. German basses have the bell vent as standard, but nowadays a lot of German ideas are finding their way onto French (and French-style) instruments and vice versa.
And thanks for the photo of the Stephen Fox bass - it has a German-style crook, so I wonder if that'll fit a Buffet Prestige bass?
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: alto gether
Date: 2011-12-23 18:47
There is almost certainly a reinforced plastic available right now that would make bells lighter and way cheaper than any metal and sound better than either metal or wood. And the marketing dept of every serious clarinet mfr has already told the engineering dept forget it, those idiots wouldn't buy it.
Loving my resonite Bundy contra alto which got here less than two days ago . . .
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2011-12-23 18:55
Friend of mine has a Kevlar Alphorn. And yes, it sounds like an Alphorn.
--
Ben
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Author: Hank Lehrer
Date: 2011-12-23 20:22
RRRIIICCCOOOLLLAAAAaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa..................................................
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Author: nosqueaks
Date: 2011-12-24 04:59
Hi Chris P, glad to hear you mention the Buffet Bell with vent tonehole for the Low C. Love the way it works on my current model 1193. Another Instrument I own that needs a similar venthole on the bell is my Selmer model 40 contra-alto.
The bell is so long the low Eb timbre changes radically.
Do you have any idea where that hole could be placed? Or how to estimate the distance from the last tonehole?
Thanks, Greg
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2011-12-24 12:21
Measure the distance between the lowest toneholes which get progressively further apart and that'll give you an idea how far the low C tonehole will need to be.
It's similar in the way the frets are spaced on guitars as there's a specific ratio that determines tonehole distances. So if you're making a bell with a vent hole for the low C, the placement of the vent hole be noticeably wider than the distance between the low D and Eb toneholes, so work out the difference between several of the lowest toneholes and that will give you the best idea of the location of the low C vent.
Then when you've worked out the distance, start with a tonehole that's too small to begin with (around half the diameter of the low Db tonehole to be on the safe side) then gradually increase the diameter until low C is in tune. The low C vent isn't used for any other note except low C, so as long as that's in tune, that's all that matters.
I don't know the mathematical formula for this (as I've never been good at maths), but Theobald Boehm went into detail about this when plotting out the tonehole positions on flutes (his 'schema' which applies to all woodwinds) and guitar makers use this ratio so the frets are correctly spaced and distanced in relation to the string length so the scale of their instruments is true.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2011-12-24 13:16
nosqueaks -
I own an early Selmer rosewood Eb contra that goes down only to low E. (The current version goes to Eb.) The low E hole is on the bell.
Steve Fox did the restoration and offered to make a wood extension to go between the lower joint and the bell. He would move the key assembly from the bell to the new extension and leave the hole in the bell standing open for resonance.
However, at least on this instrument the low E and middle B are very good, so an extension was not worth the cost.
I also asked Steve about putting a sax-type left-hand palm key to substitute for the hole in the bass clarinet's left index finger key. He said He didn't like to work in metal and turned the possibility down.
Ken Shaw
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2011-12-24 14:11
>> The bell is so long the low Eb timbre changes radically. <<
Is it alo flat or just the tone sounds different? A vent hole can make it sharper. The problem with vent holes in general can be that from a certain size the instrument starts to "think" it is the actual tone hole, not vent hole, and if it's still too small the tone will be stuffy. OTOH making it small and act as a vent hole sometimes makes almost no difference. so it depends.
>> I'll have to have a better look at the Privilege bass to be certain <<
The Privilege to low C doesn't have a vent hole. The Privilege to low Eb does. I imagine they use the same bell, which also has the last key, so the distance has to be shorter from E to Eb than from Db to C. I remember one player with a low C Privilege who had an extension to put the low C on the body and the original low C key was removed to act as a vent hole or a plugged hole for low B.
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Author: nosqueaks
Date: 2011-12-25 05:43
Chris, thanks so much for your suggestions- I knew there had to be some measuring involved, and perhaps a bit of math also. I'm sure the conical flare in the bell bow as it expands could have an effect. I have access to a bell with a badly dented bow; I will likely get that and de-dent it to use as a test bed.
Ken Shaw- Yes, the earliest Selmer contras are keyed to E, I believe they started in the mid 30's making them. I have a colleague in Los Angeles who has a similar contra to yours that was extended to low D. It has a 2 note rosewood extension and the wood is a match to the original and the keywork is very Selmer-like. The middle B and low Eb are very good but the low D a little foggy-
My 1962 Selmer has a low D removable extension that achieves the same as the horn above. You have to be a bit taller to play them- or use a chair cushion!
BTW, another friend has a Selmer extended down to low Db- Bring the yellow pages to the gig!
Clarnibass- I will have to check my Contra Eb's lowest note tuning to see how flat it is-
I have a Buffet 1193 bass and if you plug the Low C vent tone hole, your low C is almost a 1/4 tone flat- so the new Buffet bell was designed with the vent, obviously. I'd guess a current Privllege Eb bell with vent tonehole used on a Low C Privelege bass might not be quite in tune on the low C.
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Author: bph
Date: 2012-09-23 16:40
Hi Joshua,
I rarely visit this site, so my apologies for the delayed response.
I just noticed your question about the Bass and Contra-Bass clarinet bells and extensions that you saw in a photo on the internet.
These are made by my colleague and friend Alan Andrews, a clarinetist and instrument-maker from London. These are not for show: Alan is an expert in the acoustic and mechanical design of the low clarinets and has re-designed and customized his Bass Clarinets, Contra-Alto clarinets, Contra-bass clarinets, and basett-horns to function more efficiently and to correct their inconsistencies of resonance, response, and intonation. He has also modified my own instruments and those of several colleagues of mine with great results.
Modifications of this type are very complex and can only be correctly completed by a craftsman who has a very deep understanding of the acoustics and design of the low clarinets. For example, on Alan's Contra-Alto and Contra-Bass clarinets he re-located several of the tone-holes in order to correct the intonation, resonance and response of the throat tones. This required fabrication of extended tubing, tone-holes, and keywork at the upper end of the instrument. Modification of this type and on this scale is a massive task and there are very few craftsmen qualified to undertake it.
The lower wooden portion of Alan's Selmer Contra-Bass clarinet that you see in the photo is not a giant bell; this instrument required several of the lower tone-holes to be re-located to correct resonance and pitch. To do this he had to create an extension of the lower tenon to make room for the re-located tone-holes and the additional resonation holes.
Why was this done?
The corporate manufacturers of woodwind instruments manufacture instruments at a high volume using an assembly-line process. Because of their high costs of doing business there is simply no time or profit incentive to invest a great deal of time in making extensive improvements in their lines of auxiliary instruments.
For example, the basic design and tone-hole placement of Selmer Contra-Bass clarinets has not significantly changed since the late 1960's. This is in spite of the advances in our knowledge of clarinet acoustics and technological abilities.
I have colleagues who own Selmer contras from the late 1960's and from the very late 1990's; the design of both instruments is virtually identical in regards to their fundamental acoustic layout, and both instruments have the same intonation, response, and resonation inconsistencies and problems.
While this situation is unfortunate for the contemporary purchaser of these instruments i can also understand the manufacturer's reluctance to spend the money and time on R & D and to also have to re-tool their production lines in order to make significant changes to instruments that admittedly do not account for the majority percentage of their sales.
This leaves the ball in the court of the players and craftsmen. If a musician is extremely serious about having an instrument that can do all that he or she envisions then many innovations will be left to artisans and players. Craftsmen like Benedikt Eppelsheim and Alan Andrews are good examples of this; in addition to his work as an instrument-maker Alan is also a very busy performer.
By the way, for several years i have played on a African Blackwood bell and U-bend that Alan made for me. If you are interested, i have written a bit about it on an older thread from this board ("wooden bass clrinet bells") and i can email you some photos if you'd like.
- bohdan hilash
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