 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Elkwoman46
Date: 2011-11-09 13:45
Greetings to you...I saw instructions for holding the clarinet on YouTube, and various other things I have been studying, but suddenly I had an experience yesterday that made me rethink the holding the clarinet close to you, thing...
I noticed I am playing a whole lot better and more in tune by holding the bell a little out...
So, I was wondering, what is actually the correct angle to hold a clarinet out or in from the body? Is there one?
Any correct photos on line to examine?
Thanks so kindly.
I want to develop GOOD habits, not bad.
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2011-11-09 13:57
Anatomy is destiny.
Many important clarinetists have had receding chins and therefore played with the instrument almost vertical: Daniel Bonade, Ralph McLane, Robert Marcellus and Bernard Portnoy.
Others have had protruding chins and played with the clarinet held well out from the body: Alan Balter, David Weber, Artie Shaw.
Steve Girko has a short chin and angled teeth. He plays with the instrument nearly vertical and the mouthpiece turned well to the side.
Certainly some players hold the instrument out for show: Benny Goodman and Artie Shaw.
There's no one perfect angle. You do what works.
Ken Shaw
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Author: Elkwoman46
Date: 2011-11-09 15:09
Dear Ken Shaw,
Thanks so much for the reply, and I am so glad to hear that news.
Interestingly enough, I don't think my chin is receding or protruding in any special way...kind of normal, I think.
But it occurs to me, while the weight is more direct on the right thumb to hold it out more, there is a stability that evolves when playing it out more, especially for the G open finger note. The dispersion of the weight I guess is more realized when holding it out. I think that is a plus for me, then.
I am so amazed at it all...as this was kind of accidental discovery for me.
Again, thank you so much Ken Shaw for your information. And, oh, how do you play the clarinet? What angle works for you?
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Author: gsurosey
Date: 2011-11-09 15:38
My teacher and I were experimenting with this a couple days ago (were you in my lesson?... hehe). We found that if I hold my clarinet out a little more, the sound opens up (I usually hold it in quite close and I think my throat tends to close off some when I do that). I've recently found that I get notes above the staff better when my throat is more open (especially the C above the staff and notes above that), so we figured if I hold it out more, more things would open up. So far so good.
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Rachel
Clarinet Stash:
Bb/A: Buffet R13
Eb: Bundy
Bass: Royal Global Max
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2011-11-09 17:48
Well, think about what's happening to the reed and top of the mouthpiece when you bring the clarinet close to you. Instead of putting pressure directly up and down (like a pneumatic press), with the clarinet IN you have the lower teeth (and upper teeth) aproaching the reed at an angle (and you have more leverage against the reed as well). Of course it's therefore the opposite when the clarinet comes UP. The 'loudness' you hear this way is that there is less ability to push the reed closed because all you have is the direct up and down pressure available to you.
For me, I feel that the close position gives me less stress on the lower lip (if that may be an issue for you) and allows the mouthpiece to be properly inserted in the mouth WITHOUT protruding as much into the cavity (if you have tongue position issues).
But as others have alluded, it does come down to preference.
.................Paul Aviles
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Author: Elkwoman46
Date: 2011-11-09 18:15
Hi, Rachel, now that is amazing! Grin.
I figure (extremely roughly) that if one held it out straight at a 90 degree angle, I would venture to say, my new found position would be out about 40 degrees...perhaps even 45, not quite in relation to body parts, but in straight up and down and straight out positions.
I happened to have the tuner on and caught by accident how much better everything was in the new position!
Rachel, how long have you been studying the clarinet? Are you performing?
I am not aware of any teachers in our area...but I am very grateful for various books and CD's I have. When I got back into clarinet I was using easy sheet music songs, etc., but I realized I needed to go back to basics, and I am glad I did. (I found myself using trill keys for some basic notes per some fingering position charts I was using), and realized I was really off on the wrong track...grin...although there is a real clarity in sound in using them, I knew I was forming extremely bad habits. ...However, I do believe I am now in a phase of playing a practice short piece well, and then the next song, battling squeaks and squawks, and then I am okay again, and then NOT again...and wowsers. In all this time, I was doing fine with the sheet music, and now with these practice sessions, the real messes are happening...so funny...but I do believe it is progressively advancing.
Perhaps with the new angle this will all improve readily.
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Author: Elkwoman46
Date: 2011-11-09 18:44
Dear Paul Aviles, Thank you so much for your reply. I really appreciate it.
I will definitely be testing this as I go along and see what works best, particularly for intonation and sound quality.
It seems reasonable also to conclude that as one advances and possibly uses harder reeds, the angle might change as well due to varying positioning of all the factors you mentioned involving the bite and position of mouthpiece...just possibly, depending on what a student is doing in the beginning in the first place as well, perhaps?
Speaking of what you said about the reed closed...got me thinking about that documentary with Woody Allen, Wild Man Blues: therein, he was having issues with one of his clarinets and he went to the Buffet store in Paris seeking a clarinet that was open. Is this the same kind of thing he was dealing with? I really don't understand what he was dealing with. He mentioned he had a Selmer and another one that was really open, and maybe this is what was going on or not? Or is that something altogether different? Earlier in the documentary he stated he felt like he was blowing his brains out with that instrument trying to get it to play. Curiously, I think I see him in that documentary when performing holding it out and holding it in. Do you know what exactly he was referring to, or seeking, or what he probably got in return to improve his situation?
Perhaps angle position could also have to do with chosen instrument or not generally?
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Author: sfalexi
Date: 2011-11-09 21:44
Ken,
When the heck are you going to write a book?! I LOVE reading your thoughts and they always just really hit home, with no fluff. "Here's the problem, here are exercises to fix it. Here are great recordings to listen to, here's how you make yourself better."
Sigh. If ever I'm in your area, I'm taking you out to dinner or coffee or something and just gonna do some picking of your brain. But let me know when that book is out.
LOVE your advice, and it's always JUST RIGHT!
Alexi
PS - I fall in the "portruding" chin camp and so hold my clarinet further away from the body. Gives me best comfort and sound.
US Army Japan Band
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Author: Buster
Date: 2011-11-09 21:55
Elkwoman46,
Take any instructional videos you see on YouTube with a grain of salt- or perhaps the entire shaker in some cases!
Most of what I have seen posted there is worthless- perhaps the exact reason you'll only find Those people lurking in that realm.
(I have not seen every video posted so I cannot say that all is misguided, but most uploads están a la chin.......- can't write that one in English either.)
I can't tell you what to do, but trust your ears (or perhaps an instructors') and you should be approaching in the manner that you need.
-J
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Author: clarinetguy ★2017
Date: 2011-11-09 22:05
Elkwoman46, it's interesting that you posted this because I've also been asking myself the same questions lately. I've noticed that my intonation improves with the clarinet out a slight bit more, and the tone is possibly a bit better too.
I know this contradicts everything most of my teachers told me in the past. The old advice was always "pull it down and/or pull it in closer." For many years I did this without a second thought, but now I'm doubting this old advice. Ken said that "anatomy is destiny," and he's absolutely right.
Something else to consider--the angle of the mouthpiece's beak. For example, a Vandoren Profile 88 might require a slightly different embouchure angle than a traditional Vandoren.
From watching YouTube clips, I noticed that Sergio Bosi also holds his clarinet well away from his body, and he's a very fine player.
Way back when I was in 7th grade, I was sometimes flat when we tuned in band. For a seventh grader, playing sharp is no big deal, but playing flat is a
big embarrassing disgrace. One day, I figured out an easy solution. If I held my head down and got the clarinet up, the pitch went sharp. Problem solved, but only for a short time. My band director never noticed, but my private teacher put a quick end to this scheme.
Post Edited (2011-11-09 22:13)
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Author: Bob Phillips
Date: 2011-11-09 22:11
Elk,
I think that there is a lot of good advice returned here.
Like Rachel, I've been over this territory with my teacher. Holding angle turns out to be like almost everything else you do. It is a very personal thing.
In my case, holding the clarinet too close to my body chokes off the sound quality. I need to move the angle out away from my body to get the best sound. It really closes off when I pull it in.
With my neck strap, I don't have to worry about thumb pressure.
Bob Phillips
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Author: gsurosey
Date: 2011-11-09 22:28
Paul said:
> The 'loudness' you hear this way is that there is less ability to push the
> reed closed because all you have is the direct up and down pressure
> available to you.
I play on a close setup (Fobes CWF with a Vandoren V12 #4), so I definitely need to make sure I don't close things off myself; the setup will do that for me.
To answer Elkwoman46's question, I've been playing since 1989. I play in 3 community orchestras (Bb/A clarinet, Eb clarinet, and bass depending on what's needed, with the occasional alto sax appearance), and started taking lessons again last year.
I'm working with a professional clarinetist/bass clarinetist and I'm still amazed at things I learn from him that I don't know why I didn't learn them as a music major in college. I'm currently prepping Brahm's 2nd clarinet sonata for a recital (time TBD). My goal this year was to play more than just the notes on the page and not be so mechanical, thus the tackling of this piece. It's coming along.
As a random aside, I sometimes like to tease the college student that conducts one of the groups I play in about age (I've been playing longer than he's been alive). We're in the same groups, so it's all good.
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Rachel
Clarinet Stash:
Bb/A: Buffet R13
Eb: Bundy
Bass: Royal Global Max
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2011-11-09 23:06
My teacher was one of the very few players I've ever seen who held the clarinet up at almost an oboe/soprano sax angle (around 45° or maybe slightly higher) with both elbows out at the sides.
I've always felt this playing angle and posture worked for me while I was still in the dabbling stages of clarinet playing and was glad when I found out he advocated this in my first lesson with him.
All the clarinet players I saw at schools held the clarinet very much downwards which looked funny to me. Maybe it's after seeing photos of Benny Goodman or Artie Shaw (and others) playing clarinet held up that I assumed it was the done thing.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: FDF
Date: 2011-11-09 23:16
Here a note, there a note, everywhere a note, note.
To explain my point, ever watch Sabin Meyers? The clarinet is here and there in relation to her body and the music she is playing. She's a virtuoso.
There is no Holy Grail on how far out to hold your clarinet. Ken Shaw was right.
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Author: RJShaw0
Date: 2011-11-10 11:20
I've been tinkering with this exact topic for a while now and come to some conclusions of my own, and they're pretty similar to what everybody has been saying.
Usually I play with the clarinet out around the 45 degree mark, but I have to be very careful I don't angle my head down and end up playing like an oboist, a habit I used to have that was giving my embouchure grief.
Holding the clarinet at this angle will also affect your thumb. When holding the clarinet in, most of the pressure coming from the thumb rest itself, whereas holding when holding the clarinet out, most of the weight is now sitting on the inside, coming from the clarinet body itself. This has given me a lump on a my thumb inside, and after long sessions I get "numb thumb" when the tip of my thumb is numb
I find that when my sinuses really play up, when I can hardly maintain pressure, bringing the clarinet in can help quite a bit. I try to avoid this however, as I find I play sharp and definitely can't project as easily.
Kind of off topic, but related:
I also have dodgy teeth, so the clarinet angles to the right a bit, but when I try to hold it to center it seems slightly more free blowing but to the detriment of sound quality (in the smallest way, probably due to embouchure etc.)
Of course like others have stated, preference is the biggest factor. I prefer the clarinet high, and hate it when it's low.
RJS
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2011-11-10 12:52
RJShaw0 wrote:
>
> Of course like others have stated, preference is the biggest
> factor. I prefer the clarinet high, and hate it when it's low.
>
Well, to disagree with you, I'd suggest that *preference* isn't the biggest factor. The most important factor is *results.* This may be a semantic quibble for most of us here, for whom preference is based in results. But for many students, especially young ones, *preference* and *result* don't always correspond - preference and *physical comfort* correlate more closely. And for older students preference may mean habit or comfort with what they're used to.
It's important to assess the result of any change in any area of technique. If your goal is to sound better (which to an extent *is* a reflection of a preference for a particular overall sound), then whatever you change will either improve things or not and you will choose accordingly, as most of those who have written to this thread do. The problem comes for students who don't yet have a clear concept of what they want to sound like and need to rely on others' (teachers', band directors'?) - external - standards. That's why so many teachers simply teach one way - most often the way they themselves play - as if it were given truth.
Karl
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