 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Bill G
Date: 2005-05-22 01:17
In the early l940's I heard that all of Artie Shaw's recorded solos were written out, that he was not a good improviser, and that consequently he did not participate in jam sessions. This has not detracted from my enjoyment of his music but I have often wondered is those statements were true. Do any of you have reliable info on these points? Bill G.
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Author: Markael
Date: 2005-05-22 01:48
I think that's bull.
The following quotation of Shaw is taken from the liner notes of The Last Recordings, Vol 2:
"Hell, Lester Young had more of an effect on me than any clarinetist...Lester and I were friendly, and we would go out and jam together when he was with Count Basie...When Lester would play something, and I would follow him, we were kind of meshing...He knew I dug him, and I knew that he dug me. Dig is a good word there...got underneath...[Lester] played better clarinet than guys who played 'better' clarinet than he did. The formulation of the idea in his head, musically, came out of his horn."
That doesn't sound like a poor improvisor talking.
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Author: Celeborn
Date: 2005-05-22 02:07
I agree with Markael. Aside from his famous recording of Begin the Beguine, for example, there is a film recording in which his solo is decidedly varied. Of course, that doesn't prove that it wasn't written out too, but he also complained about fans wanting him to do the same thing over and over again. . . .
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Author: GBK
Date: 2005-05-22 02:50
> In the early l940's I heard that all of Artie Shaw's
> recorded solos were written out, that he was not a
> good improviser, and that consequently
> he did not participate in jam sessions.
It sounds like a comment from a jealous musician.
Shaw's improvisations were a thing a beauty and genius. There are so many recordings of him playing alternate takes of the same tune, with each improvisation being different, that the above statement is laughable.
One of the greatest recordings showing the depth of Shaw's improvisational skill is the 1938 Carnegie Hall live performance he did with Paul Whiteman's group. Simply titled "The Blues", it is 12 minutes of non-stop profound and complex ideas.
At the end of the performance, Paul Whiteman turns to the cheering Carnegie Hall audience, shakes his head and says: "I've been hanging around orchestras for approximately 22 years and Mr Shaw or no Mr Shaw, you simply cannot do that on a Bb clarinet!
Most definitely not written out...GBK
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Author: john gibson
Date: 2005-05-22 02:59
Bill
If you can find a copy of his sort of auto-biography "Cinderella..." (I forget the official title, so maybe someone can supply it)....Shaw talks a lot about jamming with people.....especially on 52nd St. NYC. How he came up with his theme song "Nightmare" on the "spot" before a live radio show. And there was a PBS interview with him a few years back (and still available I believe) where he talks about improvising music that he had no idea where it came from. Shaw was a great arranger and IMO a better improvisationalist than Benny, who was a fantastic technician of the clarinet.
john gibson AKA the clarinator
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Author: Erdinet
Date: 2005-05-22 11:00
While to my ear Shaw was a great improvisor (surely superior to Benny Goodman) and an even greater arranger, there was a somewhat common practice in the big band era for soloists to be working from an original written solo. I recall reading somewhere that even some of Duke Ellington's great soloists worked from written solos. It does not seem beyond possibility to me what with that pesky time limit on recordings at the time and all. Don't forget the big band era is just before the time that the soloist became supreme in jazz and in order to show his soloistic supremacy the soloist had to play a million and one choruses.
To me this in no way lessens the achievement of any soloist of note. However, taking ANY person's first hand account of how much some other great soloist liked them is always perilous.
If you want proof of Shaw's improvisational abilities I would suggest listening to "Don't Take Your Love From Me" done in 1954 found on Disc 5 of that really neat Self Portrait Collection. A small piece of musical perfection IMHO.
Adam
"There is a big difference between kneeling down and bending over."
-Frank Zappa
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Author: William
Date: 2005-05-22 15:30
In an interview I read somewhere, Artie said that when he recorded his "Concerto for Clarinet" for the movie, SECOND CHORUS (starring Fred Astair and Burgess Meridieth), "all I had was a lead sheet--the rest came out of my head". Judging from the published version of his "out of my head" composition, he was quite adept at improv.
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Author: hans
Date: 2005-05-23 00:15
Bill G,
I hope that the following will help to settle the questions of whether Artie could improvise or participated in jam sessions for you.
From the book "Artie Shaw" by Vladimir Simosko: "Manny Klein was quoted concerning one memorable night when Shaw jammed with Jimmy Dorsey in an alto sax duel at the Famous Door: On this particular night, it was Jimmy Dorsey's playing that annoyed Artie... he kept shaking his head." (Artie goes home and gets his horn) "When we returned to the Famous Door, he got on the stand - and he played! You never heard such sax playing in your life."
In 1930, after coming to New York, Shaw was prevented from working for a six month waiting period required by union rules. Writing about this period, Willie "The Lion" Smith says (from Simosko's book): "....the Lion was proud of him when we went out to jam after finishing our nightly stint...".
The Lion also wrote: "To sit in with me they had to be able to run chords or, in other words, play in all the keys. I wanted men who could transpose, memorize, and improvise."
Again from Simosko's book: "Through his association with The Lion, Shaw met and jammed with other musicians around Harlem".
Q.E.D.
Regards,
Hans
Post Edited (2005-05-23 13:48)
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Author: Guy
Date: 2011-10-31 04:13
Enjoyed this fine old thread.
Shaw did his first version of 'Stardust' in one take and said he did his famous solo on the fly, as it occurred to him. Later versions, including one or two I don't really care for, sound like he's trying not to be bored.
Listen to the many versions of 'Rose Room,' live ones in particular. There are congested little riffs and flourishes that no one could, or would, write out.
The many versions of 'Non-stop Flight' also demonstrate a concerted effort to try to make every rendition different. His parts sound almost impulsive.
In either Last Recordings or More Last Recordings, several pieces have multiple takes, presumably done at the same sitting, and they are different enough to prove he was improvisating.
Shaw's whole take on playing music, which he sums as trying to get what you hear in your head to come through the horn, shouts of trying to be spontaneous. It implies it was his raison d'etre for playing.
His improvising was so great, I'm surprised he became as smitten by classical music as he did at one point later in his career. Perhaps the structure brought that unobtainable '10' he talked about more into the realm of possibility.
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Author: redwine
Date: 2011-10-31 16:43
Hello, I'm a huge Shaw fan. He's my favorite clarinetist (jazz or classical) of all time. I have read quotes of his and his own writings stating that he was frustrated by having to play the same solos at live performances as he did on his recordings. It is quite possible that his solos were written or, probably more accurately, transcribed to keep the public happy (something he was also not inclined to do, but what he did nonetheless). I highly doubt that he could have achieved the success he did if, early in his career, he was not a superb improviser. The bottom line, in my opinion, is his output was the best, regardless of whether his solos were spontaneous or contained some degree of pre-conception.
Ben Redwine, DMA
owner, RJ Music Group
Assistant Professor, The Catholic University of America
Selmer Paris artist
www.rjmusicgroup.com
www.redwinejazz.com
www.reedwizard.com
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