 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: srattle
Date: 2011-10-03 06:59
So we all know that the clarinets pitch tends to drop when we get louder, while most other woodwinds get sharper.
But the historical clarinets seem to go sharper in pitch as you blow more. . .
I recently tried putting my historical mouthpiece on my buffet, mainly to see how the response would be, and was shocked to find out that the pitch again went up as I got louder.
Does anyone know
a) why this would happen?
b) if it is possible to build this into modern mouthpieces?
It seems to me like a huge advantage to have a raising pitch than a falling pitch, not only to match with the other winds more efficiently, but also for things like phrasing to dissonances (which always bothers me on clarinet)
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2011-10-03 07:37
So are you saying that your "historical mouthpiece" can honk out a low E........sharp ?!!!!? We should all have one of those for Weber's Second.
I think Tony Pay better jump in here soon. He contends that it is the player that makes the pitch go down with volume, not the horn or its accessories.
As for me, I don't see how a mouthpiece (no matter how sharp it plays on a horn) would allow this phenomenon unless you're starting REALLY REALLY sharp (on the shorter length of tube notes) and only getting the full monty as you bring up the volume.
Perhaps also the beak is very thin (like the Bay modified beak or Vandoren 88) and this makes inadvertent jaw pressure more pronounced.
But I'd love to hear about the super loud low E and low F though.
....................Paul Aviles
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Author: donald
Date: 2011-10-03 09:04
Darn it- i just spent 25min writing on this topic, and it was somehow just... "lost". It's this stupid laptop I've got, and now I'm short on time.... so bullet points....
- i too have tried playing modern clarinet with classical mouthpiece, and noted that many of the tonal characteristics were transferred (this came as a surprise, but the more i think about it the less surprising it is). I didn't however test the intonation at different dynamics (but was amazed at how i could actually play more or less in tune).
- my theory on the intonation rising is that it is your reaction to the "resistance wall" that is built into classical mouthpiece design- narrow windway, thick rails. Increased "effort" soon reaches a point where it is not resulting in more volume but increased tension because the "set up" has reached a wall.
- as an example, play open G on your modern instrument and then raise your shoulders, for most players this results in the pitch rising due to increased tension in the players throat.
I do play Classical clarinet, but this theory, and my understanding of these issues, comes more from my experience refacing mouthpieces (AND attempting to cure intonation problems in my own playing).
dn
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2011-10-03 12:33
Charles Neidich has this to say (from my report on Clarinet Day at Mannes):
The clarinet does *not* naturally play sharp at ppp and flat at fff. It seems to do so because players make an embouchure mistake, relaxing to get more volume and squeezing to get softer, and also by changing the oral cavity. His demonstration was difficult to describe in words, but easy to hear.
An exercise to get out of this habit is to play G on top of the staff at mf and bend it down 1/4 step. Hold your embouchure and raise the pitch back up entirely by raising the back of your tongue into a "hee" vowel. (Actually, it's a combination of "hee" and "yeah!!")
When you can do this, then learn to drop your jaw as far as possible, holding the pitch up with the tongue/oral cavity position.
Then, start with your regular embouchure, drop your jaw a little (holding the pitch with the hee/yeah vowel) and then bring your jaw back up for "best tone."
Ken Shaw
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Author: Koo Young Chung
Date: 2011-10-03 12:42
It doesn't make any sense.
When you play forte, the pitch goes down because the reed has to travel greater
distance.
And when the amplitude of the reed vibration gets bigger,it deviates from the perfect harmonic oscillation.
This is the same effect as Gailileo's pendulum.
When the swing amplitude is small,the period(i.e.pitch) is constant regardless of the amplitude,but when it's gets bigger the period gets bigger because of the higher order of the inharmonicity cannot be ignored.
If you want to sound it sharp,it might work, up to a certain degree.
former physicist
Post Edited (2011-10-03 13:12)
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Author: Tony Pay ★2017
Date: 2011-10-03 14:43
>>I think Tony Pay better jump in here soon. He contends that it is the player that makes the pitch go down with volume, not the horn or its accessories.>>
Not me.
What I say is: because of the anharmonicity of the modes of resonance of the instrument (they are flat to integer multiples of the fundamental), the perceived pitch in the steady state may be different from the fundamental corresponding to the length of tube. According to Benade (Physics of wind instrument tone and response, 1971) the fundamental frequency locks into position in such a way as to maximise the weighted average height of all resonance values R1, R2, R3,.... corresponding to the harmonics f1, 2f1, 3f1,....
As you play louder, more harmonics are present in the sound, and therefore higher values of the sequence R1, R2, R3,....begin to take effect.
The message is that the resultant sound for 'normal' behaviour of the reed is *always* harmonic, though it may be more or less rich, or indeed have a different pitch, according as the sequence of normal modes of vibration of the clarinet are more or less harmonic.
In another thread a few years ago, I wrote the following:
Liquorice wrote:
>> I am curious -- do you also experience the pitch getting SHARPER when you play LOUDER on certain notes on a classical boxwood clarinet? If so, do you have any idea why this is so?>>
I said I would reply to this when I had a bit more time. And my reply is that I DO find this; but in my experience it isn't due to the classical boxwood clarinet but to the mouthpiece/reed setup that you need to play such an instrument effectively.
The truth is that certain sorts of mouthpiece and reed setup reverse the tendency described by Benade -- which means that although the physics of the flattening/dynamic correlation is correct, other things can dominate and even reverse it.
Most people here will play on an essentially French mouthpiece/reed setup. Though not a great deal of research has been done into reed behaviour that I know of (but perhaps I'm wrong: see the summary of at least one paper in:
http://www.speech.kth.se/smac03/abs05_link.html)
...it is perhaps intuitive that the reed on a curved facing tends to come away from the mouthpiece more as the dynamic increases, so that the longer 'pendulum' has a lower frequency. So that is in the same direction as Benade's prediction of flattening with increased dynamic inherent in the clarinet.
On the much less curved long German setup, the pendulum is long to start with -- suggesting that perhaps it shortens as the dynamic increases, giving rise to a sharpening effect.
(I'm guessing here.)
But where I'm NOT guessing is that I can report that playing a German style mouthpiece on an Ottensteiner copy -- a really quite complicated clarinet, with many toneholes -- the 'sharpening with increased dynamic' occurs over the whole range of the instrument, contra the prediction of the 'Benade effect'. Attacks here are sharper than tailoffs, and a sudden increase in dynamic pushes the sound sharper.
Tony
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Author: srattle
Date: 2011-10-03 14:55
I'm just saying what I experienced, not that I know anything about the science behind it (this is sort of why I'm asking)
Koo Young Chung:
The bassoon, oboe, and flute players I know all say that when they blow harder, the pitch tends to rise, and that they usually have to adjust down for that natural occurrence. I noticed that the historical mouthpiece (as with the historical instrument in generally) tends to react this way as well
Ken:
Are you saying that, although I've had years of this bad habit of dropping my tongue too much during loud passages, that with the same bad habit, I magically do the opposite with the historical clarinet?
Not to say that your remark isn't correct (what Neidich is saying there is still a battle against the instrument to stay at pitch. Whether it's the player or the mouthpiece, it's still a natural occurrence in almost every clarinet player in the world to some degree) I don't really understand how it pertains to my question.
Paul:
My interest in this has a lot more to do with phrasing than specifics in intonation. There are many other things that can help the low E on the clarinet. I'm much more interested in the possibility for raising the note as the blowing pressure increases. I find this is one of the most beautiful aspects in Baroque phrasing from woodwinds, and would LOVE the ability to have that on my modern clarinet. It would also help a lot for playing with the other woodwinds during a crescendo or diminuendo!!!
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Author: srattle
Date: 2011-10-03 14:56
Ken: I will however try this exercise out for other reasons. Heck it could even be interesting for this inquiry
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Author: Tony Pay ★2017
Date: 2011-10-03 17:17
Sacha, I predict that you will find the same effect on the mouthpiece/reed and instrument of one of your German-system playing pals. And you're ideally placed to organise trying that out.
Let us know if I'm wrong.
Tony
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Author: srattle
Date: 2011-10-03 18:17
I'll see what I can do Tony! But it's normally a lot harder to put the German mouthpiece on my clarinet, since it has a much longer tenon. I'll do my best!
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Author: Tony Pay ★2017
Date: 2011-10-03 18:29
I meant, just try their instrument. I -- and you, I think, from what you post -- am convinced that the difference is in the German reed/mouthpiece setup. (That's what we tend to use on period instruments.)
Tony
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Author: srattle
Date: 2011-10-03 19:46
You know, I'm not sure I remember hearing German players go up when they play loud. I will try it out though when I get an opportunity!
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2011-10-03 22:54
Dear Tony,
Thank you for your correction. I believe I must have had Niedich in mind all along on that one. As for the German facing, I will need to be corrected on this one too, but in 13 years of playing Oehler system Wurlitzers there was NEVER a time when the pitch tendency was reverse of my Boehms. I played mouthpieces by Wurlitzer mostly but also Hammerschmidt and Zinner. Perhaps the "modern" German set up is not the same as the historical one.
Dear Sacha,
I find the phrasing concept you speak of interesting yet somewhat counter productive. My example is of a post not too long ago of one who posited whether a certain level of difficulty in the process of playing could add to the creative element. Having played a bunch of different types of clarinets over the years my personal feeling is that one needs to PLAY the instrument, not the other way around. Of course I admire your curiosity.
................Paul Aviles
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Author: srattle
Date: 2011-10-04 08:26
Paul,
Totally agree that one should be in control of the instrument, not the other way around.
However, do me a favor, next time you practice, try doing some long notes in different registers where the 'peak' of the note is audibly higher than the rest. Please also do this without having the beginning and end of the note flat.
I personally find having the loudest part of the note sharp is FAR more appealing to the ear than having it flat. We all have the tendency to hear sharp as brighter and flat as darker, and why would we want to usually have the climax of a phrase or note become darker? doesn't really make much sense for regular use.
BTW, I totally agree that in certain circumstances, when the player is having certain difficulties with a piece/performance, that can add to the performance. I recently had an experience playing a wonderful piece by Kamran Ince (Lines) where by the end of the performance it had been so strenuous physically that I was pushing myself onwards. This definitely added to the performance, and everyone who was listening (at least who I talked to) agreed.
Doesn't mean I don't hate Ferneyhough for this reason. . .
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Author: Tony Pay ★2017
Date: 2011-10-04 23:39
Sacha wrote:
>> You know, I'm not sure I remember hearing German players go up when they play loud.>>
No, and nor do I when I play loud on the Ottensteiners -- I hope. But that's because I compensate with oral cavity and embouchure -- as we also do in order not to go flat on French instruments. (I even use fingerings to do that in extreme cases -- as in Abime.)
Tony
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Author: Tony Pay ★2017
Date: 2011-12-22 02:43
>> Sacha, I predict that you will find the same effect on the mouthpiece/reed and instrument of one of your German-system playing pals. And you're ideally placed to organise trying that out.>>
>> You know, I'm not sure I remember hearing German players go up when they play loud. I will try it out though when I get an opportunity!>>
Did you?
Tony
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Author: William
Date: 2011-12-22 03:08
Charles Neidich said the same thing here in Madison during a master class and had many UW clarinet majors demostrate the change in sound and pitch control that resulted. That may also be why many double lip players have less trouble with intonation that us single lippers. Most clarinet players play with too stiff a reed and too tight an embouchure and are less flexable as a result. To play in tune, you need to vary the firmness of your embouchure, loosen for soft passages and tighten for the louder ones. Also looser in the upper register to prevent going super sharp with the brass and sopranos. However, good intonation is good cooperation--you need to tune to whomever has the lead at the moment and that can become quite a circus with most amature organizations. You should, therefore, develop an embouchre and oral configuration to allow pitch flexability to tune to those musicians born with galvanized ears. 'nuff said.........
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Author: Buster
Date: 2011-12-22 03:41
Tony and Sacha,
Never having played an historical/period instrument (with a more "Germanic" mouthpiece) or a modern day long-lay German mouthpiece, I have a few questions.
-How extreme is the increase in pitch that can occur? A few cents or 20-30?
-Sacha, with the modern day instrument, did you find this tendency over the entire range, or was it limited to certain octaves/harmonics?
-Also, on the modern day German set-up, was the pitch increase immediate with any concurrent dynamic increase (as on Tony's Ottensteiner copies?); or found only at extremely loud dynamics?
I realize some of this requires subjectivity, particularly speaking in the realm of dynamics; and it can be difficult to divorce the corrective measures we somewhat ingrain to automatically adjust for these tendencies.
------
It is a counter-intuitive phenomenon to what seemingly should occur. And I would find it a bit disorienting at first to play a clarinet that tended to rise in pitch with dynamic increase.
Regarding the shortened pendulum effect: to an extent, I can sharpen easily during a crescendo with an increase in jaw pressure on French style facings: the reed is "closed off" (vibrating portion shortened) a bit due to the pressure, and thus must vibrate at a higher frequency.
Perhaps this is what reverses Benade's prediction and is the correct path of exploration, as was stated earlier.....
-Jason
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Author: Buster
Date: 2011-12-22 03:44
William,
Having spent extensive time playing both single- and double-lip, I don't find that either method inherently allows better intonation.
I can say that when fatigue sets in, pitch seems to be less stable with "proper" double-lip than with single.
-Jason
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Author: srattle
Date: 2011-12-22 11:56
Tony,
I did try this out with a modern German clarinet, and the pitch still drops. I also asked a few people who are used to playing German clarinet, and they also said the pitch goes down. (Although I think in general not quite as much as with most Boehm setups)
Buster,
I find the pitch increase is minimal. It ends up being more of a color thing, rather than the perceived color getting deeper and, in my opinion, 'saggy', the sound gets brighter and more intense (which to my ear, helps give a yearning character to suspensions and from them, the dissonances often resonate stronger)
Also, the change seems to be general, and not for specific notes (although of course it would be different in different registers, just like bending an altissimo note down is much easier than a chalumeau one.
The best way to hear what I'm talking about, would be to listen to great bassoon, oboe or flute players. Especially dealing with Baroque music (try Sergio Azzolini)
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Author: Tony Pay ★2017
Date: 2011-12-22 12:14
Sacha wrote:
>> I did try this out with a modern German clarinet, and the pitch still drops. I also asked a few people who are used to playing German clarinet, and they also said the pitch goes down. (Although I think in general not quite as much as with most Boehm setups).>>
So, given that you find that with your period mouthpiece it goes UP, that says something about the difference between your mouthpiece and the mouthpieces that they are using.
I don't know what modern Germans play on for mouthpieces.
Tony
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Author: Buster
Date: 2011-12-22 21:08
Eric,
If you are following this thread, what occurs on a Reform-Boehm as its players commonly use a long-lay, German style mouthpiece?
....not to beat a dead horse
-Jason
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Author: MarlboroughMan
Date: 2011-12-22 22:51
Jason et al,
I'm not sure whether the majority of Reform Boehm players use long lay or not. I've been told that the Viotto N 1+2 mouthpiece is very popular among Wurlitzer R-B players in the Netherlands, for instance, and if I'm remembering correctly, that isn't a long lay mouthpiece.
Having said this, I just pulled out a sampling of mouthpieces and tried them on my 1951 Fritz Wurlitzer as well as the H. Wurlitzer model 187 in my studio.
The mouthpieces: F. Wurlitzer c. 1951 (with a Fr. Pfeiffer facing), Viotto N1, Wurlitzer WZ2, Zinner George Pieterson model.
The Zinner/Pieterson and the Fritz Wurlitzer are both long facing, the Viotto and WZ2 shorter facings.
Of the four, the most volitile was the old Fritz.
The WZ2, Viotto, and Zinner/Pieterson were barely effected by crescendo.
ALL tended to go lower.
Eric
******************************
The Jazz Clarinet
http://thejazzclarinet.blogspot.com/
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Author: Tony Pay ★2017
Date: 2011-12-22 23:16
Eric wrote:
>> ALL tended to go lower.>>
On my Grenser copy mouthpiece, and on my long-lay mouthpiece that I use with my Dölling-extended period basset clarinet -- and with the embouchure that works the best overall -- reeds tend to go higher with an increasing dynamic surge.
What are we to make of this?
Tony
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Author: Buster
Date: 2011-12-22 23:39
Tony Pay wrote in part:
> What are we to make of this?
2 things to my mind:
1- Without true study in fluid-dynamics re. reed behavior we probably cannot find the definitive answer.
2- Simply knowing what the/our resultant tendencies are, and that they exist, is of much more importance. From that, we can find all the possible compensations and applications that can be made, applying as needed depending on the specific situation at hand.
#2 far outweighs #1 on a pragmatic level for me.
-Jason
Post Edited (2011-12-22 23:41)
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Author: MarlboroughMan
Date: 2011-12-23 01:02
Tony,
By "embouchure that works the best overall" do you mean an embouchure that you apply to all your clarinets: modern French bore Boehms as well as period replicas? Or specifically to the period replicas?
Eric
******************************
The Jazz Clarinet
http://thejazzclarinet.blogspot.com/
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Author: Caroline Smale
Date: 2011-12-23 10:44
Is there any connection between the volume/pitch variations of this post and the tendency for clarinet pitch to drop immediately after the initial starting transient?
Does this transient pitch also reverse on some German style set-ups?
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