 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Joarkh
Date: 2011-08-07 21:19
I am planning to try to start making my own reeds - does anyone know of a supplier of decent cane?
Joar
Clarinet and saxophone teacher, clarinet freelancer
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Author: rtmyth
Date: 2011-08-08 15:01
I never found one. Now it's too late. But read Sherman's column today on his experience with synthetic (Forestone?) reeds. Maybe that is a good alternative.
richard smith
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Author: Joseph LeBlanc
Date: 2011-08-08 15:31
I've been using RDG with good success. Cane quality varies wildly from brand to brand(even year to year sometimes) and certain types work better with different players and setups.
All things equal I think the cane is MUCH more importent than the tools and profiles you are using to make the reeds (as long as they are consistent). I've tried about 10 different types and only 2 of those for me would be acceptable to make reeds with.
Here's a list to help you get started:
http://www.clarinetreedmaking.com/?page_id=358
Good luck.
-Joe
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Author: ThatPerfectReed
Date: 2011-08-08 18:34
Hi Joar:
I'm rarely inclined to ask a questioner why they ask what they do--especially if I suspect the answers regarding why they ask are known.
I may though question the solution or if the right question's being asked.
====
The classic answer regarding the pursuit of cane for making ones own reeds is, I would normally think, "to produce higher quality reeds, ideally at lower prices per reed, than what store bought reeds, after adjusted, can get me."
Maybe for some reed makers it's more expensive, but produces [more?] higher quality reeds.
Of couse some may just love to widdle and tinkle--or give reed making a try--and that's fine, while others have become so good at making their own reeds that they could not imagine the idea of buying store bought reeds, anymore than a 5 star dessert chef buys out of the box cake mix.
Clearly--I don't know what proficiency you have at already making clarinet reeds. If you're new to it, most on the board will suggest, I think, that it's no magic bullet to bad/expensive store bought reed problems--despite all the lack of predictability and frustration that one can find in a store bought box of reeds, that can lead them down the path of wanting to make their own reeds--sometime in desperation.
Then, remind yourself, that if you could make great reeds, you'll still be subject to all the nuances of our friend/enemy Arundo Donax over time. Despite my screen name, and at the risk of telling you that you may already know, the perfect reed doesn't exist, and even at its peak, a reed's optimal performance can come and go in a moment, for reasons we can neither explain or predict.
Which segues me into the aforementioned Sherman Friedland article.
http://clarinetcorner.wordpress.com/
I'm a huge Forestone fan. Try them if you haven't. While some here swear by Legere, or would rather eat a synthetic reed than play on it, nothing is quite so pleasing as to be able to practice clarinet with the agility that reedless wind players like flutusts pick up their instrument and play--as Sherman discusses. I only wish these products were available when I was younger, so I could have concentrated more on the music than getting a reed in decent enough shape to play the music. Clarinet's hard enough even if we could perfect a permanent perfect reed.
The only negative things I can say about Forestone is that if I get sloppy with my embouchure, ![[G4]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/g4.gif) can sound like I did when I first started playing, and they don't have Legere's return policy.
Someone answer me this: why would cane based reed makers market a box of 10 reeds as differentiated so that "as many of the reeds can be enjoyed by as many players as possible?" Is that why 2 in a box, even after adjustment play well? Isn't the more likely reason the reeds differ, even when manufacturers can control cutting to near microns, is because the underlying cane differs--often in ways we can't even easily explain?
And if this differentiality is so desirable (see software bugs marketed as features), why, within one strength, brand, and type of synthetic reeds do the synthetic reed producers strive for--and come darn close to consistency?
Wouldn't (tongue in cheek) the marketplace want to see 15 flavors of a Legere Signature 3.5, or a Forestone F3 1/2 if this were true?
It's not that the cane reed manufacturers aren't trying their best. It's that even the best Arundo Donax differs. Nature's design requires species to differ so better featured organisms survive to produce the next generation. It's almost as if cane reed manufacturers need a better base product (see synthetics).
I hope your a genius at making reeds. If so, can I buy some off of you? And I hope you find "out of this world" cane. But in the absense of either or both, I think Richard Smith above, and Sherman Friedland are on to something--not that I don't love that rare great cane reed.
I'm I the only one that buys reeds thinking it similar to pulling the slot machine arm, telling myself "this box of reeds/pull of the 'one arm bandit' will be different. This time I'll be a winner!"
Can you imagine if we had to shop for other goods like we do reeds--even organic goods subject to all the varieties nature can offer. Can you imagine buying a case of wine to get 1 or 2 decent bottles...?
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Author: David Niethamer
Date: 2011-08-09 01:46
I think you can buy clarinet tubes from Argendonax, though I haven't done so for a long time. The cane I bought from them was the best I ever had from anywhere. they are the makers of Gonzales and Zonda reeds.
I also tried tubes from Reeds Australia. My initial reaction to that cane was negative, and I let it sit in the box for a few years. In desperation, I made some reeds from the tubes after a few years, and found it to be much improved from a little storage time in the box!
HTH
David
niethamer@aol.com
http://members.aol.com/dbnclar1/index.html
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Author: Joarkh
Date: 2011-08-09 08:33
Thanks!
Joar
Clarinet and saxophone teacher, clarinet freelancer
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Author: Joarkh
Date: 2011-08-09 08:51
Hi ThatPerfectReed,
Your rather long reply left me puzzled as I failed to see exactly what you are trying to tell me. Is your question why I am bothering trying to make reeds?
In that case, I will make this clear: Certainly, I am aware that the perfect reed does not exist. Trying to find it is not a goal of mine. However, I do believe that I will be able to influence the quality of my reeds more by making them myself than by buying them.
As for your hoping that I am a genius at making reeds, I can assure you that this is not the case. I have never done it before. But I have got several instruction books on the topic, including Kal Opperman's, and I believe that with patience, practice, time and concentration, I must be able to make something. That's what they did before commercial reeds became available...
I'm sorry to inform you that I won't be able to sell you my reeds. I need the time to practice.
I've tried Forestone myself, and frankly, I don't like them! I get better results with almost any random Vandoren V12 than I do with Forestone.
You open your reply by questioning "the solution or if the right question is being asked". I don't know what problem the solution you refer to is supposed to solve.
My problem is this: I want to make clarinet reeds, and I don't know where to get cane. I don't want to waste time and money on low quality cane if I can avoid it, and therefore I ask the members of this board about their experiences with various cane suppliers.
Consequently, I welcome replies that concern themselves with various cane suppliers and impressions of their cane quality.
Joar
Clarinet and saxophone teacher, clarinet freelancer
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Author: Joarkh
Date: 2011-08-09 08:51
I have not yet; thanks for the tip!
Joar
Clarinet and saxophone teacher, clarinet freelancer
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Author: sonicbang
Date: 2011-08-09 09:23
I have been making my own reeds (although I use Vandoren and Rico products when don't have enough time) for over 4 years. I'm very satisfied with the cane tubes Luciano Pisoni distributes and I had good results with Rigotti as well. Here is a website you may find useful:
http://www.marion-cane-reeds.com/english/marion_cane_reeds.htm
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Author: ThatPerfectReed
Date: 2011-08-09 21:41
Joar--again, I wish you the best luck in finding great cane and in your reed making technique.
As I suspected, your desire to make your own reeds is a matter of quality [perhaps even at less cost per reed than store bought reeds]--and, as you indicate, Forestone is not your solution to quality. I utterly respect the new knowledge you've given me.
I'm just concerned, when I hear of someone's interest to take up single reed making, especially if it involves their up-front acquisition of tools, that they approach it with realistic expectations. As a new comer, lets just say I'm glad you have no expectations of ever playing the perfect reed, and I suspect: since you seem very on top of things, that your reed standards for your initial crack at this venture are probably ones that are realistically low--as they should be for anyone initially taking up this craft.
I would be thrilled if you proved me wrong and had beginners luck at this.
If nothing else, even if it doesn't work for you--and I hope it does (can you at least teach me if it does--if not sell me reeds?) what you learn can be applied to tune store purchased reeds. Kal's book for example, is great but sadly, at least in my case, I could read a book on juggling, and still not master it.
Kal had another quote about time being the most precious thing we have--especially as musicians. Maybe you know the quote, or certainly you realize that the time spent scraping is time spent not practicing.
My seeming pedanticism in defining your real problem is going to come in the tough love I gave a student who also told me they wanted to make clarinet reeds. When I asked why, the same quality issues were presented.
"And why do you want quality reeds," I asked rhetorically--as if I didn't realize the answer had to do with performing better?
To which I replied, "might it be a better use of your time to tune store bought reeds and practice more, than spend your time whittling?"
Of course the lesson may not apply to you--and thankfully some really good leads on the cane you seek have appeared here. For all I know, and I say this seriously, maybe performance virtuocity is something you already possess, and you just want to take your playing to the next level by better controllling the process of reed development. Maybe you have the time, and just want to give this venture a try.
Please do understand my comments were meant as tough love, not critcism.
Last thing--just consider middle ground here. Have you tried Tom Ridenour's ATG reed adjustment system? I really have gotten a lot more store bought reeds into better shape with this. Of course you may already have acquired this, and found limited success with it.
Yes--back in the day, some brilliant clarinet players made their own reeds. Cars also broke down a lot more. Fortunately, both industries and a lot of others have improved, allowing consumers to specialize in a limited number of money making ventures, and acquire in the market, for often cheaper and better quality than they can do themselves, the goods and services they cannot effect as well as others who specialize in these market spaces.
But--I think you KNOW this...I just want to make you REALIZE it in the context of reed making.
I appreciate your tenacity at venturing ahead with this. In the meantime I need to practice what I preach, get off my soapbox, and into the practice room!
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Author: Joarkh
Date: 2011-08-10 14:42
Thanks for your clarifying reply, ThatPerfectReed!
I have not tried Ridenour's ATG system.
I want to ask you one question, though: I have read several places (in the books of Opperman and Larry Guy, for instance) that a well made selfmade reed will last longer than a commercial reed, due to something they call the "curing" process. (Which you apparently do with your own blanks, but is not done in factories?)
What is your opinion on this claim? I have to admit that the idea of a reed lasting longer than I find the commercial reeds do, is appealing to me.
Joar
Clarinet and saxophone teacher, clarinet freelancer
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Author: sonicbang
Date: 2011-08-10 16:55
I suspect what that 'curing process' can be. When I split the cane tube into four parts, I soak them in water for 8-10 hours. After they are completley dry (if the sections are to long, I saw them into appropriate lengths) I send them with 400 grit sandpaper and soak them in fresh water. To use fresh water is important, because the cane releases a lot of mineral elements and helps the reed to play with more flexibility from the very first note.
I repeat 3-4 times this with smoother and smoother sandpapers, finally I work with 1200-1500 grit.
If you treat the reeds this way the can last for 3-4months (or course if you rotate 6-8 reeds while practising).
Regarding the time factor, I think this is an investment. Although I have no longer time to play on my own reeds exclusively, I can adjust a factory made reed in just 10 seconds with my knife to play as good as it should.
If you have any question, just write to me, I gladly share my experience on this theme.
.
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Author: ThatPerfectReed
Date: 2011-08-10 19:26
Hi Joar:
Though my evidence is purely anecdotal, not personal...YES, I have heard that properly processed, self purchased cane, treated with care not unlike that sonicbang describes, then self fabricated into reeds, DOES result in longer lasting reeds.
And I don't believe this is just the exaggerated accounts of self made reed makers trying to justify their craft. I've heard it over the years from too many players I know and trust.
Moreover, since I've been so negative about your progression in this direction, let me say something positive:
I would be hesitant about taking to heart anyone who might remark by saying, "look, Mary Smith and Bob Jones," (two famous fictional clarinet vituosos I just made up) use store bought brand reed X. If it's good enough for them, why isn't it good enough for you?"
And the answer I believe, is largely 3 fold.
1) Their performance schedule may not give them the time to make their own reeds, that they would if time permitted.
2) They're often paid endorsement fees for supporting a particular brand of reed. Not that I'm saying "Bob Jones" doesn't believe in or otherwise use that brand, but that he and Mary have emotional and contractual conflicts of interest.
(One caveat: there's a regular participant on this board, who shall remain nameless, who is an artist for a particular brand of reeds that I like, that I think this artist truly likes, and whose opinion I not only respect, but that I feel would be the first to disenfranchise himself from this company, and not support said reeds, if not outwardly criticize them, if they weren't good, of if the manufacturer didn't maintain their standards. He only suggests products of this manufacturer that are truly good, even if he doesn't put down the less successful product lines of this manufacturer. )
3) And my personal favorite, the have the $ to apply the "throw enough poop on the wall and see what sticks) method of picking reeds, better known as "go through 8 boxes and find 3 gems" especially given not only the endorsement $ their getting from the company, but the often contractual perk of having access to 300 boxes of reeds a year at no cost to them.
Joar--may your venture not only produce you high quality long lasting reeds, but may you be able to do so in a way that is consistent and describable to others, able to follow in your footsteps.
I have a dream that someday reed players will pick up their horns, no differently than flutists or cello players, and be less subject to variations in their playing an otherwise good instrument, that this "stick we blow on to make a sound" can cause. : - )
And I bet there's an oboe/bassoon player or two out there who wishes this even more than me.
Even in a fictional world of "the perfect reed" there will still be PLENTY of attributes about any reeded horn that will seperate the "kids from the adults."
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Author: Joarkh
Date: 2011-08-10 19:41
Enlightening thoughts, Russ!
I too envy e. g. flutists and cellists for their, shall we say, proximity to the music - in my view they are much closer to it since their tone production is more reliable, in other words they don't have to search for reeds before practicing. Often I have wished that I played the viola instead, but then of course nothing beats the clarinet when you feel that everything works... :-)
I have heard about players who will use every reed in a commercial box and then practice eight hours a day - and I have also heard that this, naturally, means that they do not practice with their best tone quality all the time. And here's what I would want to do: To be able to consistently produce high quality sound! When I practice music, I have to practice expressing something. And how can I do that without controlling the voice I am using? I think this is one of my fundamental reasons for wanting to learn more about reeds. For the same reason, I would also be interested in learning about the principles of mouthpieces in due time.
Since I'm completely new to reedmaking, it will take me some time to get an overview of what I need and then order it and then get started. But when I do, I will keep you informed of the progress!
Joar
Clarinet and saxophone teacher, clarinet freelancer
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