 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: clarinetgirl2
Date: 2011-07-28 14:29
What are your opinions on playing double lip vs single lip? Sound, intonation, etc..
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Author: rtmyth
Date: 2011-07-28 14:43
I played double lip for 70+ years. No teeth marks, and pretty good timbre. Did I miss something?
richard smith
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Author: sfalexi
Date: 2011-07-28 16:15
Personally, I think it's your preference. There are MORE than enough really good single lip players that one can conclude, "It's not bad to play single lip."
Each has pluses and minuses. I don't think it would hurt to try both and see which one makes you feel more comfortable playing.
Alexi
US Army Japan Band
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Author: kdk
Date: 2011-07-28 16:51
If you search the archive on "double lip" you'll get more discussion than you bargained for about this subject. It really comes down to a question of personal comfort. It's certainly possible to play well either way.
Karl
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Author: ThatPerfectReed
Date: 2011-07-28 16:53
Hi clarinetgirl2:
Since I think that mentoring/teaching is one of the necessary parts of being a good clarinetist, (in addition, as Ricardo Morales would point out, a good person http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Hh0TZhhBoU, along with practice, performance, and your own training, never would I seek to discourage anyone here from posting a question--especially since your thoughts might be similar, but not identical to another--previous post on this bboard.
But neither am I afraid to point to questioners to a previous link here on the subject matter, http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/read.html?f=1&i=353187&t=353187, nor do all but encourage use of the bboard's search feature.
My post is hardly the last word in double lip playing. But what started out as a question on my part on a specific matter of double lip playing, ended up covering some of the very stuff, I think, you may seek answer to.
Also, while there are many super knowledgable people on this site regarding double lip playing, one particular man, Paul Globus pg@writeability.com sticks on in my mind as a guy whose knowledge on the subject matter, including oral cavity mechanics, is only surpassed by his willingness to help. Mr. Globus studied with Yona Ettlinger, a renouned double lip player of his time.
I help this helps--but if it doesn't, here was the general consensus.
* Wonderful players sit on both sides of the single/double lip debate.
* It cannot hurt to try, and some say trying it improves single lip playing--especailly when (see next bullet item)
* It's sometimes useful in addressing problems players have in certain pasages played single lip, that, with the knowledge gained from trying and succeeding at it double lip, is often useful to the single lip player once they revert back.
* I love the tone I get double lip. Some would claim it's all in my head...and maybe that's the case, and fine----as some would say, "if you think you sound better.....you do," a school of thought that critically links internal perceived confidence to external real abilities shown audiences.
Best in clarineting.
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Author: ThatPerfectReed
Date: 2011-07-28 16:58
oops, Karl talked first about the search feature etc. that it seemed like I was only reiterating when referring to it....he much have been pushing the "Post" button while was typing similar sentiments. : - )
Brilliant minds think alike (wink)
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Author: clarinetgirl2
Date: 2011-07-28 17:43
Thanks for the replies. I needed some positives in double lip to help a young player.
Here's why I was asking:
I have a young student (11yrs old) who's been playing now for a 6 months. I started him on double lip since I was taught to play that way but not until late in my college career. It was a struggle at first but the results I got were amazing in my sound.
Now this kid just finished 3 wks of intense practice & study at a summer music program at a top University. He is producing an amazing sound for being just a little kid Nailing the upper register without any problems and was actually moved out of the elementary program and into the pre-college WindEnsemble while he was there.
He has returned home to play in his middle school 3 wk summer band program. Now he is being scolded by both band teachers that his double lip playing is not going to be allowed. The reason he was given is that it is incorrect & that they want a particular sound from all the clarinets.
These are all beginner clarinet players from 0-6 months of playing.
I am just shaking my head with these people.
Any suggestions how to deal with bad and uneducated teachers?
I think I need to give them some articles to read.
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Author: Joanna
Date: 2011-07-28 17:51
I think that it's absurd that these teachers are discouraging double lip. First of all, are these teachers even clarinetists??!!?
I have been encouraged, as a university student, to play double lip sometimes. It truly DOES help my usual single-lip playing.
The sound quality definitely isn't any different from one to the other. And besides, these are beginner students...
My advice would be to talk to the directors.
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Author: kdk
Date: 2011-07-28 19:06
The two band directors are completely out of line and obviously don't know what they're talking about with regard to clarinet embouchure or sound. The fact that they say "they want a particular sound from all the clarinets" in a band consisting of 0 - 6 month players suggests they may not know much about what they're doing more generally, either. Yes, give them whatever articles to read that you can find, but I wonder if they'll read any of it.
The likelihood is that if the student doesn't advertise that he's tucking the upper lip in, the teachers won't really be able to tell (he may at this point just have to say he's playing single lip - teaching that kind of dishonesty to a young student isn't really a good thing, but maybe a necessary evil here). If his sound was such that he was jumped out of a beginner group in the university program, then maybe the real answer is that this is not the most appropriate group for him to be playing in now. If the band teachers, knowing he has competent private instruction, won't leave him alone, I'd say his parents should pull him out of the group and let the teachers know why. Then look for something more appropriate.
The real problem may be if he's going to need to deal with either of these teachers during the school year. Taking any action now may complicate that situation. But in my opinion, if he's been as successful as you've described using double lip, he should on no account change because of these two teachers' complaining.
Karl
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Author: sfalexi
Date: 2011-07-28 19:47
I suggest you go speak with those teachers that are scolding him, and also, if possible, get references from those teachers who moved him UP in that program to the pre-college program. I would hope that the music teachers, when faced with reasonable (be REASONABLE while talking to them!) teachers who specialize in clarinet and believe his playing is fine, would accept it. Maybe they won't change their ways for other students, but someone working with an individual teacher who can verify that it is a good sound and technique might at least grant him an "exception" to be allowed to continue in that way.
Alexi
US Army Japan Band
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Author: clarinetguy ★2017
Date: 2011-07-28 20:20
I agree with the advice the others have given you.
After playing single lip for many years, I became a double lip player a few years ago. I generally don't teach it, but if a student has a problem, I encourage him/her to try it. Currently, two students of mine are playing double lip.
About the only time when double lip might not be a good idea is in a high-stepping marching band. When I marched years ago in high school and college, most bands marched high step, and I played single lip. Most high school bands these days don't march high step, and I don't think a double lip embouchure would present any problems.
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Author: Bob Phillips
Date: 2011-07-28 20:23
Phew,
At least the band teachers are not (yet) demanding that everyone play on the same mouthpiece!
It really bugs me that organizations want all their clarinets to sound the same. WHY?
In an ensemble where there are two or three clarinets, I really enjoy having each player having his/er individual tone character.
In the real world, it is hard to find two players with the same sound. Why is homogenization so highly valued?
Bob Phillips
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Author: ThatPerfectReed
Date: 2011-07-29 00:24
The teachers your student are with are undeniably misinformed--as we all concur.
There is postively nothing---to say the very least--bad about double lip playing. And that's coming from a predominately single lip player.
Oddly enough, the one "negative" (if you could call it that) about such a double lip embouchure is that it might be harder to develop at first than single lip--but if your "kid's" already got the embouchure down and is thriving with it, the so-called negative I raised is a moot issue.
Cahuzac, Ettlinger, Wright, Opperman, Stolzman--to name a few...they all got it wrong when they chose this playing style?
> Any suggestions how to deal with bad and uneducated teachers?
Send them these posts. Ask them to cite their (failed) logic as to why they are shying away from double lip. Inquire as to their credentials.
> I think I need to give them some articles to read.
See this threa, and the bboard's search function.
Plus, allow me to cut and paste from an email between the aforementioned Paul Globus and me a few weeks ago--whose subject matter is entirely public:
"You might read several books that provide good explanations of double lip embouchure and embouchure formation in general. One is Tom Ridenour's Educator's Guide to the Clarinet. Another is Howard Klug's The Clarinet Doctor. Finally there's Keith Stein's The Art of Clarinet Playing, Carmine Campione's Campione on Clarinet, and Larry Guy's Embouchure Building for Clarinetists. All of these books are available from Gary Van Cott's online store (Google his name and you'll find him easily)."
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Author: clarinetgirl2
Date: 2011-07-29 01:51
I've sent the kid's father to this forum thread to see that the pros are on my same page. He's been reading & learning what it's all about & why I started the boy with double lip. I've even provided him on my background with the Conservatory & teachers I studied with.
He should now have plenty to offer these "teachers" to get educated.
I see & hear a lot of promise in this little boy and don't want anyone to mess him up.
Thanks everybody. I would appreciate continued input. This has been great.
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Author: kdk
Date: 2011-07-29 02:09
This is an elementary level band - no one there has any kind of a sound that you'd want to homogenize.
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Author: Arnoldstang
Date: 2011-07-29 04:11
I think double lip encourages the jaw to be dropped and 'unclenched'. This totally changes the tone. There is a similar affect achieved on the flute with the 'chopstick exercise'. A chopstick is inserted side to side in the mouth which forces the jaws open. The student then forms an embouchure and practices. It basically is encouraging an 'oo' or 'o' approach. You might find these flute videos on youtube.. Keith Underwood is one proponent.
Freelance woodwind performer
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Author: sfalexi
Date: 2011-07-29 04:47
Arnoldstang wrote:
> I think double lip encourages the jaw to be dropped and
> 'unclenched'. This totally changes the tone.
I believe that's the reason the sound might be changed. Less pinching, to me, yields better classical sound. Single lip players, especially if just learning, learn quickly to "pinch" the reed to make the sound come out. They bite down. Double lip naturally discourages this.
I still hold my own personal belief that you can attain the SAME sound with single lip as you can double lip. Only you have to be consciously aware that you are NOT biting down on the reed and mouthpiece while playing single lip. And the sound changes in your head a little bit depending on whether you have a mouthpiece patch on or not, and how much of your teeth, if any, are touching the mouthpiece (the vibrations go through to your head affecting you THINK you sound.)
Alexi
US Army Japan Band
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Author: Paul Globus
Date: 2011-07-29 12:23
Just one correction. Yona Ettlinger did not play double lip. And he was a superb player in every way. I did study with him and he knew I played double lip, but he never tried to change me. His focus was mostly elsewhere: on the results, on understanding the music, on intelligent expression, on flexibility. His teacher, Louis Cahuzac, was a double lip player, I have been told, but I cannot confirm that.
The style of embouchure one adopts is not the secret to great playing. Single or double lip is a personal choice that depends most of all on the physical make up of the player. One can never forget that. There are legions of great players in both camps and probably more in the single-lip camp if you bothered to do a global survey.
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