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Author: Arnoldstang
Date: 2011-07-25 20:23
In a recent pit musical I was asked to play more on 'top of the beat'. How would you practice this? In this case I was not dragging.....everyone was playing 'on top' of the beat. It was the fast tempo numbers in particular.
Freelance woodwind performer
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Author: mrn
Date: 2011-07-25 22:36
As I understand the term, "on top of the beat" means that you play just slightly ahead of the beat (or slightly ahead of what you perceive as the beat).
It could be that you and the other musicians in the pit were hearing the reverb from the back of the theatre and following that as the beat, which put you behind the singers on stage. When you play "on top of the beat" you anticipate when the next beat will fall rather than listening for it.
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Author: kdk
Date: 2011-07-26 00:16
Which makes the conductor even less necessary than usual.
Karl
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Author: kdk
Date: 2011-07-26 00:20
More seriously (though maybe no more useful), many players, especially in orchestral situations, get used to playing slightly behind the conductor's beat. This can be for a number of reasons and, to the extent it's deliberate, have any of several rationales. But when you get into a pit, where coordination with something external to the pit orchestra becomes an issue, you can't play behind. The conductor may have been trying to overcome the tendency for delay in order to keep things together with the stage (or a click track if there was one operating).
Karl
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Author: TJTG
Date: 2011-07-26 01:07
I tend to agree with Karl. Although, I feel the reason orchestra conductors are ahead of the beat is because they are telling you what to do next. Its too late to give a cue on the beat.... you'll have already missed it. (this makes it look like you play behind)
When you are in a pit orchestra, that is an actual pit, you tend to be directly beneath the singers. This means your sound has to leave the pit, go back, and hit the singer's ears above you, before they sing with your sound. The exactly opposite if you're playing along with their singing.... BUT if you're listening to them, and they're listening to you, you're forever going to slow down to be together. Or just never sync up.
Your sounds have to leave simultaneously to be heard in the audience in tandem. The only person who knows what the audience is going to hear is the director, because they're the only person in a position to know if you're together. In the best productions I have done there are TV's on the wings of the stage (audience can't see) showing the conductor. This is so EVERYBODY see's the stick at the exact same time. You have to play to that.
So, in short, be with your director.
"On top of the beat" is kind of a misnomer. If you're the concert master in an orchestra, chances are, the director is looking to you for timing (in some situations). If you're a tuba player, your note left your horn before any violin played it. Everything you do to play "in time" with others changes depending on your position in relation to the audience. A pit orchestra tends to just have a different nuance.
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Author: Arnoldstang
Date: 2011-07-26 05:02
Let me restate this question. The conductor wants me to play slightly ahead of the stick/baton/beat. Any suggestions for practicing this?
Freelance woodwind performer
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Author: mihalis
Date: 2011-07-26 05:20
Arnoldstang wrote:
> Let me restate this question. The conductor wants me to play
> slightly ahead of the stick/baton/beat. Any suggestions for
> practicing this?
>
Why dont you ask your conductor?
That will be the best I think!
Mike
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Author: johng ★2017
Date: 2011-07-26 14:41
Thanks for the question and the answers about this. This is a topic that has always confused me, since I have been accused of playing behind the beat. It seemed to me that if everyone was playing ahead or on top of the beat then the music would eventually rush, which was what the drumming article was pointing out. The situation in a pit must be very strange for the conductor....who to conduct for??? The recorded illustrations in the drumming article are worth listening to as they very clearly show the difference in feel for playing on the back, middle, or top of the beat.
A good illustration of this was with the worship team at my church. They are good, but not professionals. At one service, a professional drummer played and the difference was enough that even the pastor noticed it. What I thought I heard was the drummer pushing the beat, but what he was really doing was playing just a little ahead with his snare, etc. It was a huge difference from being kind of blah to making you sit up and take notice of the new energy.
John Gibson, Founder of JB Linear Music, www.music4woodwinds.com
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Author: kdk
Date: 2011-07-26 15:22
I have experienced this in pits myself, but my feeling has always been that, once the drummer started doing this, whatever the effect may have been on the music, the conductor was no longer in control of the pit. We were basically following the drummer. Makes it easier to play not to have to look at the stick and the music at the same time, since in a pit the line of sight through your music stand to the conductor is often not very direct and the lighting is poor, but it takes things largely out of the conductor's hands, or at least puts most of the responsibility for communication with the conductor on the shoulders of the set drummer.
Karl
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2011-07-26 16:08
Listen to Dexter Gordon play tenor sax, and do the exact opposite
I mean this in a positive way, Dexter is one of my all-time-favorite jazz musicians. But boy did he play behind the beat!
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Author: Arnoldstang
Date: 2011-07-26 18:56
Years ago i remember a conductor saying that we were playing behind the beat and the result would lengthen the show. (conductors do have time limits) At the time I thought what does it matter if I lengthen the show by .05 of one second. It surely wouldn't put it into overtime.
Freelance woodwind performer
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Author: Wes
Date: 2011-07-26 19:37
One can push the beat forward or drag behind but how can you go wrong if you just accurately follow the stick of the conductor? He is in charge of the time.
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Author: BobD
Date: 2011-07-26 20:31
I don't think it's something you want to learn because the next conductor you play under will tell you to back off........I have memories of the trumpet section repeatedly pushing the beat and driving the conductor nuts...
Bob Draznik
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Author: kilo
Date: 2011-07-26 20:50
Quote:
Listen to Dexter Gordon play tenor sax, and do the exact opposite
That's so true. Or compare the classic Basie band with the classic Goodman band.
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Author: Arnoldstang
Date: 2011-07-26 22:14
One has to fit into different situations. Different conductors are just that....different. You play as they want. I in no way recommend 'playing on top of beat' as a general rule.
Freelance woodwind performer
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Author: Ed
Date: 2011-07-27 00:50
Quote:
One can push the beat forward or drag behind but how can you go wrong if you just accurately follow the stick of the conductor? He is in charge of the time.
Unfortunately, what the stick shows and what the conductor wants are not always the same thing! ;-)
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Author: Bob Phillips
Date: 2011-07-27 15:41
I had a similar problem at trio rehearsal last week. I was listening to and following the lead part. The quick fix was to count on my own. Then, things came together.
Bob Phillips
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Author: BobD
Date: 2011-07-27 18:12
"Don't pay attention to the conductors, it just encourages them."
Bob Draznik
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Author: Arnoldstang
Date: 2011-07-28 14:00
In my case I think placing time in the 'middle' of the beat corrected the problem without having to go 'on top'. There is a tendency to rely on a groove being set up in the band and everyone just going with the flow. This might work with some shows but not all. I think I fall into the category of a 'musician trying to make music without enough concern for the conductors' non metronomic baton. It's a valuable lesson learned. My eyes are now glued to the conductor but my ears are still listening to the ensemble.
Freelance woodwind performer
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