 The Clarinet BBoard
|
Author: CuriousClarinet
Date: 2011-07-25 00:18
So, I've played clarinet for eight years. Only recently learned I've been tonguing wrong for the entire length of my clarinet experience... When I tongue, my tongue hits the roof of my mouth instead of the reed. However, tonguing that way makes a noticeable -I would call it- 'ticking' sound, although my teacher referred to it as an overtone, so I wouldn't suggest that method. =p But anyways, I'm trying to fix it -I've worked on it for two weeks now- but it's not really working. I can't tongue fast using the 'correct' way, and it's pretty much impossible to play on the level I usually do. So it's really frustrating. I'm using a few exercises my teacher suggested and one of the Rose Etudes, but it's not getting any better/easier. I can't legato/staccato notes, and it sounds really sloppy to me. High notes are also hard, and I squeak a ton. Every time I tongue I can hear air or something escaping. Is that normal? Or am I the only one that can hear it?
Anyways, I have some questions regarding how, exactly, to tongue. I'm probably way over thinking it, but its how my mind works. I know where the tongue should hit on the reed, but ideally, should the tongue be pointed? How hard do you tongue, do you just lightly brush against the reed, or do you actually press against it? Where is your tongue when it's not against the reed? Directly underneath? Back farther?
I know that's kind of a lot of questions, but really I'm interested in anything that might help. I'm getting my wisdom teeth taken out on Tuesday, so it might be a while until I can work on this tonguing again, but this is getting really frustrating, and I keep getting told it's really hurting my playing ability. Help? =)
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: EEBaum
Date: 2011-07-25 00:36
There are multiple ways to tongue, and I would hesitate to label any as "correct," though I would say that contact with the reed is necessary at some point of the mechanism, making contact to stop vibration and releasing to allow vibration to start.
Don't get too hung up on the details. Different methods work better or worse for different people, as everyone's not built the same way. You say that you know where the tongue should hit the reed, but I would argue against there only being one right answer for that.
-Alex
www.mostlydifferent.com
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: EEBaum
Date: 2011-07-25 00:49
What I think it's important to realize with a lot of questions like this is that the clarinet is just a tube with keys and holes and a reed on it. Its design is not some divine inspiration, nor was it invented by a master physiologist with exact notions as to how to produce sound on it. It's a tube with a reed. As long as the reed moves and the holes open and close, sound will come out. Anything beyond that is a matter of "what will produce the tone/facility/etc. I'm looking for", and sometimes the answer is "any of these 17 things in various combinations, each with their own advantages and disadvantages, some of which may even be advantages to one person/configuration and disadvantages to another."
Try things, and see which work better. Get input from a bunch of people as to why, in their experience, some things work better than others. Don't, however, expect to find one right answer. When I'm in good shape, I anchor tongue (often described as a "wrong" way) faster and cleaner than many who tongue in one of the competing textbook "correct" manners. Could I benefit from using another method? Perhaps, but this works better than I need it to and I can direct my efforts elsewhere.
What ARE you doing, in pursuit of the "correct" way, that's causing you all this grief?
-Alex
www.mostlydifferent.com
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: CuriousClarinet
Date: 2011-07-25 01:24
You're right that there is no 'cut-and-dry' way of tonguing. But the way I've been doing does not work. Bottom line, it sounds wrong. What is anchor tonguing? I know that is the way my teacher tongues.. but he's never really brought up what it is. Honestly, I don't really care how I tongue, I just need to find a way that sounds right. The way I have been tonguing makes a weird noise and the more definition I put on each note the worse it gets. It doesn't sound right. =p
Anyways, all I'm trying to do differently is have my tongue hit against the reed instead of the roof of my mouth. But it's like going back to the first year of playing all over again. I've just been working on tonguing 'correctly' w/ an etude and playing notes repeatly, and playing everything else like I normally would. I've been told, by a few different people who have heard me play solos, that I'll never go anywhere with music if I continue to tongue the way that I do. But I've tongued wrong for quite a while, and it's proving pretty hard to fix.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: EEBaum
Date: 2011-07-25 01:56
Anchor tonguing is where the tip of your tongue remains stationary at your bottom teeth, and a spot a bit further back on the tongue makes contact with the reed.
Try this: Start by getting a note going, however you get it going (tongued or not). Then use your tongue to make contact with the reed, such that it makes the sound stop, without changing your airstream. Release the tongue to allow the sound to continue.
Trying it just now, without anything in my mouth, I'm noticing a significantly different technique between tonguing at the front of the mouth and tonguing at the back, behind where the reed would be. You might try doing just that, without anything in your mouth: Tongue at the back of your mouth, and at the front, and notice any differences. For me to tongue in the back of the mouth requires a significant amount of jaw movement that isn't necessary at the front. Does the same happen for you?
You might also try closing your teeth and seeing how fast you can make a repeated "tss" sound. I did that everywhere in my free time for a couple months, years ago, and still do once in a while. Sped and cleaned up my tonguing like crazy.
Hope some of this works or at least makes some sense.
Just to check, you are making a "t" or "d" syllable, not a "k", yes?
-Alex
www.mostlydifferent.com
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2011-07-25 02:26
I'm in the "it's either RIGHT, or it's WRONG" camp of tonguing.
Robert Marcellus would say that learning to tongue properly is like toilet training. Just take it slow, do it right and progress will come......eventually.
First off, the tongue DOES NOT strike the reed. Tonguing is the act of the tongue LEAVING the reed and allowing it to vibrate. So the correct position of the tongue when not ON the reed (no sound), would be as close as you can leave it without it damping the reed (SOUND) so that it can get back to the reed as quickly as possible for the next "attack" (better thought of as INTERRUPTION OF SOUND).
The only variation is just exactly where to damp the reed. I have heard that some very fine clarinetists actually damp at the very tip (or rather on the edge of the reed). For me, I find there is the tendency to achieve a spitting sort of sound upon release and quite honestly it tickles my tongue. Many fine clarinetists damp just under the tip. This is my preference, but this is really the only variable I could endorse for standard classical clarinet playing.
Once you get to the advanced concepts of "double" or even "triple" tonguing, you will once again interrupt the flow of air by striking the the roof of your mouth (what goes around comes around I'm afraid) but this time it will be with a point further back on the tongue as if you were saying "KAH," Alternating with the standard release from the reed you get the equivalent of saying ...... Tah-Kah, Tah-Kah, Tah-ka, etc.
....................Paul Aviles
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: DAVE
Date: 2011-07-25 03:01
This is what my teacher Larry Combs would say, more or less: Touch the reed with the tip of the tongue just like saying the letter "D". Say the word "articulate". The "t" in "articulate" is just about right. Never harder than that.
He would have me play rose studies very slowly concentrating on proper placement and working to NOT bang the reed.
To this day I work very hard to do this and I also concentrate on touching the reed in exactly the same place every time. If you stick with it, you will achieve success.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: CuriousClarinet
Date: 2011-07-25 05:16
Thanks for the info. Yes EE, I am not thinking 'k' when I tongue. (no matter what 'method' I use.) Perhaps if I ever figure out double/triple tonguing I would, but I have to figure out regular tonguing first. =p There probably is more jaw movement when I tongue on the roof of my mouth, but I don't notice/see it when I play.
I'm guessing one of the reasons I originally learned to tongue wrong is I've always had a hard time pronoucing words/sounds requiring my tongue to be close to the front of my mouth. It's gotten alot better as I've gotten older, -although somewhat ironic, 'tonguing' is a word I still pronouce wrong.- When I started playing the "t" sound was fairly uncomfortable. It just... doesn't seem natural for me to have my tongue that close to the front of my teeth (where the reed is) for tonguing. But I'll continue to work on it... not much is impossible. =p
Just curious, is anchor tonguing an okay way to tongue? Does it produce a different sound then the 'regular' approach? What are the disadvantages/advantages of it?
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: luckyclarinettoenla
Date: 2011-07-25 05:46
I've recently experienced the same type of situation where I was tonguing one way and then started with a teacher again and realized that my tonguing was making my playing too much of an effort. The way we are addressing this challenge is by getting a mirror that stays on my stand when practicing. I constantly watch to see if the area where a "double chin" would be is moving. If you see any movement at all when playing, then it is likely that your tongue is in the wrong position. So far it has helped immensely and my "squeak" has disappeared completely.
Has anyone else tried this method with success?
Never fool yourself into believing that today's 'good enough' will do tomorrow!
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: clarinetguy ★2017
Date: 2011-07-25 06:17
The situation that you describe, having difficulty pronouncing words with the tongue close to the front of your mouth, is something I've seen before. It must be very frustrating. Here are a couple suggestions. Practice singing "tu--tu--tu--tu," and make sure your tongue moves forward in your mouth and touches the back of your top teeth for each "tu." Make sure your chin stays very still. Next, repeat the procedure with a straw (not the skinny kind). Instead of singing, though, you'll be blowing through the straw, and instead of tonguing behind your top teeth, you'll be doing it on the opening of the straw.
Once you can do this successfully, try it on your clarinet, but take the reed off. Yes, I know this sounds weird, but it does work. Do the same thing you did with the straw, but this time your tongue will touch the end of the mouthpiece to start each "sound." Once you feel comfortable with this, try it with the reed back on the mouthpiece.
Most clarinet teachers suggest tonguing with the "t" or "d" syllable, but Roger McKinney suggests using "n" or "nu." http://www.tcnj.edu/~mckinney/tonguing.htm This might be worth a try.
You asked about anchor tonguing . . . I don't do it, but I know how. Some people will say that's it's not an acceptable way to tongue, but if it works for you, there's nothing wrong with it. I think it is one of those things that was fairly common 50+ years ago, but not used frequently today. If the standard method doesn't work for you, by all means give it a try.
I recently had a young student who was really struggling with tonguing. I tried every possible way to help, including anchor tonguing. I noticed that he was able to do it, but there was a lot of jaw movement that went with it--not a good thing. Eventually, the student learned to tongue the conventional way.
EEBaum gave a good description of anchor tonguing. Keith Stein gives quite a long description of various anchor tonguing methods in "The Art of Clarinet Playing" on p. 25. It's definitely worth a try, but again, watch yourself carefully with a mirror to make sure you're not chewing each note.
Post Edited (2011-07-25 06:20)
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Tony F
Date: 2011-07-25 10:15
I can't tell you how to tongue, but I can tell you how I tongue. It works for me and it may work for you. The part of the tongue used is at the top, just back from the tip of the tongue. It does not strike the reed. When tonguing, the tip of the tongue is advanced until it just touches the reed until the reed is damped, and is then abruptly withdrawn. When the tongue is withdrawn, it is brought to a position slightly lower than the tip of the mouthpiece, just behind the lower teeth. The action is similar to pronouncing the sound "Th". The actual tongue movement is minimal, and it's not difficult to achieve the becessary speed of repetition.
Tony F.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: salzo
Date: 2011-07-25 15:55
Have a concept in your ear what you want the notes to sound like when articulating. Then do what it takes to achieve that sound.
There are so manydifferent methods of articulation that works for different clarinetists, it is eally about finding what way works best for you considering your physical make up.
When I am working with myself or students, I am trying to get myself/them to sound a certain way. I dont care what they have to do in order to achieve that, just as long as they are getting the right sound. Only when the sound is not proper, do I address what the student is and should be doing when in the act of articulating (or anything else for that matter).
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Joanna
Date: 2011-07-25 17:27
Hi,
I've recently had a little breakthough when it comes to tonguing. Ideally, the tongue should be between the top and bottom teeth, touching the lower lip. When practicing staccato exercises, I've realised that if you say the articulation a couple of times and then quickly play it without changing anything, it works.
Basically, if you can say it, you can play it. It takes some time to get used to, but it really helps. I've implemented this with the Mendelssohn scherzo and it has done wonders
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: EEBaum
Date: 2011-07-25 18:38
Anchor tonguing is the only way I've ever tongued. Nobody has ever noticed just by listening to me, and the only way I found out that's what I do was in hearing people describe "the correct way to tongue". Teachers are generally surprised I can anchor tongue this fast, and the consensus tends to be "if it's causing you trouble, try another method, but it seems to work great for you, so keep at it."
I also discovered that I'll sometimes use different parts of my tongue laterally to hit the reed, so that during a fast passage, my tongue might see-saw left to right a bit, providing an extra boost in speed, I'm guessing because the motion isn't so repetitive. I didn't set out to learn this, it just happened, out of necessity. (occasional passages of repeated low A sixteenths at 160+ on bass in a death metal band, and I wouldn't take no for an answer. I didn't overthink it, just aimed for "sixteenths that fast" and let it happen.) It's entirely a mental game. If I think about how the tonguing happens, it doesn't work, but if I know when I want the last note to sound, it will usually get there right on time.
I don't *think* that technique would work using standard tonguing.
-Alex
www.mostlydifferent.com
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: clarinetguy ★2017
Date: 2011-07-26 04:16
EEBaum said:
I also discovered that I'll sometimes use different parts of my tongue laterally to hit the reed, so that during a fast passage, my tongue might see-saw left to right a bit, providing an extra boost in speed . . .
It's interesting that you should say this. Although I don't anchor tongue, I've noticed that this is a good way to tongue very quickly. For me, the "n" syllable helps in this situation.
Near the end of his life, Keith Stein was hard at work on a second book, but I don't think he completed it before he died. I studied with him just before he retired and he spoke frequently about his project, but I never saw any of it. From what I heard second hand, he was intrigued with this idea of side to side tonguing in fast passages. I think he wrote about it, but that's all I know.
I know I'm getting off the topic a bit, but does anyone know what happened to his unfinished manuscript?
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Claire Annette
Date: 2011-07-26 13:36
More than once in your original post, you said, "I can't." Tsk, tsk.
Try taking a straw and,u using the pointed tip of your tongue, stop and open the air flow as you blow. Elementary, yes, but using a spit wad or pea-shooter analogy (minus the spit), I've been able to get better results from my miidle and high school students.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: sfalexi
Date: 2011-07-26 16:21
Whenever you change something about your playing, it may take a bit for it to become natural. I adjusted my tonguing a few months ago and it felt unnatural for a few weeks. Even as I found it become more and more natural, I'd 'slip back' into the old way every now and then. But now it's very natural and I'm just working on building up more speed and working on different forms of airflow and other aspects of my playing.
My best advice is to start slow whenever you change something about your playing. So if you're working on tonguing, work slowly. Also, play EASY things. Nothing that requires much thought or practice, so you can focus SOLELY on your tonguing.
And if you're going to change things about your playing, don't try to change TOO much at once. For example, I needed to work on my tonguing, tongue position, and wanted to work on finger technique (keeping the fingers light and close to the toneholes). So I broke my warmup into bits and parts. One part focusing on tongue position and finger technique with slow scales, apreggios, etc. etc. Then I focused on tongue position and tonguing while not changing fingerings.
So I didn't try to focus on LOTS of things at once. Just one or two things at a time until they become pretty natural, and then work on more stuff. Wish I had done all this stuff a long time ago, but unfortunately I was very happy in my ignorance. lol.
Alexi
US Army Japan Band
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Phurster
Date: 2011-07-27 02:13
The advice above is pretty good. I would like to add one or two other ideas.
Firstly have a clear concept of what you want. Listen to expert players such as;Marcellus, Guy DePlus, Antony Pay. Try to move your 'release' in this direction.
Secondly try to simplify. Lots of staccato etudes can often reinforce the same poor technique. Try to get a clear 'release' on one note first. Perhaps a 'F' (fifth line), then move to a G and an A. Keep in mind as well as tongue position on the reed, air support and oral cavity shapes are important. Move to more difficult studies after you feel confident.
Thirdly keep in mind the musical context. The tonguing that might suit Mozart is perhaps different than what will suit Stravinsky.
Fourthly as mentioned above, perseverance is everything.
Good luck,
Chris.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Madame
Date: 2011-07-27 02:24
without reading everybody's contribution (because I'm tuckered tonight) you are more STOPPING THE AIR FLOW than anything else. Maybe if you think of it that way, you'll get the right touch on the reed :D GOOD LUCK! Tonguing is one of the harder parts of clarinet playing if you ask me :D
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: TianL
Date: 2011-07-27 14:21
for your original method, is your tongue touching the reed at all? when you tongue the roof of the mouth, does the back of your tongue's tip touch the reed?
if so, it's not really wrong.. perhaps just due to how your mouth is structured. the structure would definitely affect the way you tongue, so there is really not one correct way to do it. for example, for someone who has to hold the clarinet at a 45 degree angle (due to the relative positions of the upper/bottom lip) instead of 30 degrees, the relative positions of the reed and tongue would be different, and that will change the way one would tongue.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: TianL
Date: 2011-07-27 20:42
hmm if it's anchor tonguing, then it must be your back of the tongue is hitting the roof of the mouth.. then i've misunderstood it and you should ignore my previous post.
i used to anchor tongue also and went through the painful process of correcting it.. it indeed took quite a bit of effort but i think it's worth it.
"I know where the tongue should hit on the reed, but ideally, should the tongue be pointed? How hard do you tongue, do you just lightly brush against the reed, or do you actually press against it? Where is your tongue when it's not against the reed? Directly underneath? Back farther?"
The tongue would be pointed. you should tongue very lightly. it's like 10 cells on the tip of your tongue is touching the 10 cells on the tip of the reed. in general the higher the note, the lighter it should be. there is a little variation allowed, like it could be off the tip of the tongue a little, or it could be off the tip of the reed a little. but tip-to-tip is where you should start. When the tongue is not against the reed (which is the majority of the times), the tongue just flows there and the tip of the tongue is right next to the reed (more like underneath it).
When I had to go through this, it was very slow because it just feels so different. The main thing is that when you are anchor tonguing, your tongue is ALWAYS resting against something (tip of tongue on the inside of the bottom lip). however, now, your tongue is not resting against anything at any time, so you have to kinda just control it. (but don't try to control the tongue, instead, have enough air support and just think of "tee" to release the tongue from the reed). just stick with it and eventually you will get it and it will feel all natural.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: TianL
Date: 2011-07-28 05:14
Alex, at least when I was doing it, the tip of my tongue is anchored on the inside of the bottom lip; the mid-front part of the tongue touches reed, and the mid-back of the tongue would hit the roof inside the mouth.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: EEBaum
Date: 2011-07-28 07:48
Whoa... my tip is anchored where yours is, and the same part touches the reed, but my mid-back doesn't hit the roof unless I'm double-tonguing.
-Alex
www.mostlydifferent.com
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: CuriousClarinet
Date: 2011-08-01 00:37
Sorry I haven't gotten back to this thread for awhile... I've been recovering from getting my wisdom teeth out. =P Anyways, just to clarify, when I tongue the way I normally do, my tongue is not touching the reed at all. The tip of my tongue hits the roof of my mouth, alot farther back then where the reed is. The back of my tongue just... sits there. It's not touching any part of my mouth. I had a clarinetist once suggest putting more of the mouthpiece in my mouth. That way the mouthpiece would be where I 'normally' tongue.. but my tongue is way to far back for that to work. (bad suggestion, I know, but it gives you an idea of where I tongue) I realize this isn't actually tonguing because I'm not stopping the reed's vibration. But I didn't know that when I started playing. Does anybody know of anyone else that attempted tonguing this way, or am I truely unique? =p
I've been banned from playing for awhile until my gums recover more, but I'll continue working on this as soon as possible. From my perspective, this is alittle bit different then just 'adjusting' the way I tongue, because I'm not actually tonguing. I actually have to learn how to tongue. =p I realize this is probably one of those things that'll get worse before it improves, but from what I've heard it sounds like I don't have much of a choice. Thanks for the info/suggestions.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: TianL
Date: 2011-08-01 13:10
I think that's truly one of a kind never heard of anyone do it the same way.
so it's not really anchor tonguing, then I think it will be much easier to change.. much easier than if you are anchor tonguing. Probably all you need to do is to relax the tongue a little bit and let the tongue shift a tiny bit forward.. I think the shape of the tongue can stay the same, just the tip of the tongue needs to reach the tip of the reed.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Tobin
Date: 2011-08-01 20:04
Curious,
I've helped several students through this process -- you should fully expect to achieve success. How much speed at the end of the adjustment is the only question.
The previous student who had this problem with whom I've worked has essentially corrected her tonguing in a couple of weeks. Now significant work in refining what's right so that she can tongue quickly is the next step for her.
You are looking at it like it is completely different -- it is, but it isn't. You've already been moving the tongue to "articulate", now you need to adjust to actually tonguing the reed.
As you make the adjustment (when you're cleared to play) the tip of the tongue may feel "fuzzy", similar to the feeling you get when you bang your funny bone. This feeling will completely disappear in 3-14 days. During the time that it exists, however, it will feel moderately uncomfortable -- but it will also be showing you that you're in the place.
Good luck!
James
Gnothi Seauton
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
The Clarinet Pages
|
 |
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
