 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: janlynn
Date: 2011-07-02 21:36
My teacher suggested Brahms for my next piece to work on.
would you suggest 1 or 2 and why?
is the Poulenc about the same difficulty?
I can choose something else if I want to (but I'm not interested in doing Weber)
any suggestions for something at about the same level?
and do you think someone who is about beginning college level can play these or will it be very challenging?
Thank you, Jan
Post Edited (2011-07-03 00:23)
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Author: Katrina
Date: 2011-07-02 21:43
I played the first mvt of Brahms' second in 10th grade, and Poulenc 1st mvt in 11th grade. I worked on the 3rd mvt of Poulenc between 11th-12th.
I have advanced high school students working on all of these.
IMO, the Poulenc is harder technically and the Brahms are both musically difficult. So...Depends on which kind of challenge you're after!
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Author: salsacookies
Date: 2011-07-02 21:48
I played Brahms' 2nd symphony in 2006. It's one of my favorite symphonies along with Sibelius' 2nd. I love the last movement.
My setup
Leblanc Legacy Bb with grenadilla barrel and bell, B45 w/Optimum lig.
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2011-07-02 22:10
salsacookies wrote:
> I played Brahms' 2nd symphony in 2006. It's one of my favorite
> symphonies along with Sibelius' 2nd. I love the last movement.
>
Which is why you need to be more specific in a question like this. I assume you're asking about sonatas, not symphonies or the Poulenc Sextet, etc...
All of the pieces you named are technically accessible to a strong high school student. I'm not sure when a person develops the affective or musical maturity to handle the expressive challenges of any of those pieces, but any serious clarinetist needs to learn them sooner or later, so a first experience with any of them at the college level seems appropriate.
Karl
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Author: TJTG
Date: 2011-07-02 23:44
Have you considered the Bernstein?
Hindemith is also pretty nice, if not a little easy. It would push your ear, in a tonal sense.
The Horovitz Sonatina is fun.
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Author: Bob Phillips
Date: 2011-07-03 04:32
Janlynn, I spent a great deal of time with the Brahms sonatas before taking on the Poulenc. For me, the Poulenc was completely new territory and very difficult to get my brain around. It is tough, but I think that the Brahms pieces have more depth.
BUT, the Brahms "Clarinet" sonatas were written by Brahms for Brahms to play the piano part. You can master the clarinet part, you can get hugely good advice on phrasing and technique; but it is a duo, some say a Piano Sonata with clarinet accompaniment.
You'll never "feel" the Brahms without a great deal of work with a pianist who can play his/er part at least as well as you.
If I had a do-over, I'd still do the Brahms 120 #1, then the 120 #2; and, later, the Poulenc.
Hint: That big leap to Eb6 early in #1 can be fingered TR OXX | OOX Eb, but Janet Jonquil "will do anything to get the better Eb fingering: TR OXX | XO,OEb."
Enjoy, and be in no rush. Listen to a variety of players go after each of these as you study them.
Bob Phillips
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Author: salzo
Date: 2011-07-03 19:01
THere should be a law that clarinetists can not play either of the Brahms sonatas until they are forty.
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Author: Bob Phillips
Date: 2011-07-04 00:21
;-)
Salzo, 40 may be stretching it a bit, but you have an excellent point.
On the other hand, no pianist should be allowed access to a school practice room until THEY have worked up the Brahms with a clarinetist.
Bob Phillips
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Author: Aidan
Date: 2011-07-05 11:56
In terms of difficulty (easiest to hardest) I think:
1. Poulenc
2. Brahms 1st Sonata
3. Brahms 2nd Sonata
I also agree with Bob and Salzo. I remember one teacher saying "you shouldn't play Brahms until you've had sex." While this may seem strange she was saying that a high level of "musical maturity is needed to play any Brahms well.
Aidan
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Author: janlynn
Date: 2011-07-05 12:58
okay, so I qualify for the Brahms age wise lol but perhaps not musically. I have learning challenges which makes progress slow, but I try hard and do my best. Playing music doesnt come easy for me. But I enjoy it and have a teacher who is willing to work with my challenges.
I am going to place my order to Van Cott in a day or 2 and I'm looking for more suggestions.
I have only done 3 performed pieces so far. One piece from the Bach Suites, 1st Mvt of the Hindemith, 3rd Mvt of the Mozart. After 3 1/2 years of lessons I know its not much but those were big accomplishments for me.
I'm going to order the Poulenc and maybe the Horovits just cuz I like it but think its way above my ability.
what else can I begin to take a look at?
Thank You everyone, Jan
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Author: sdr
Date: 2011-07-05 13:21
How about Schumann's 3 Romances for clarinet and piano?
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Author: janlynn
Date: 2011-07-05 13:50
sdr - Ooooh ya.....I just listened to these after your suggestion and I love it. Especially #2.
Thanks
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Author: clarinetguy ★2017
Date: 2011-07-05 15:13
I personally like the Brahms 1st sonata better than the second, but they're both very nice. If you're just going to study them without performing them, it doesn't really matter which one you do. If you're planning a performance, make sure you have an excellent pianist.
The Horovitz Sonatina is a fun piece, but the third movement is very difficult.
TJTG mentioned the Bernstein. It's a nice piece, and I recently pulled it out after not looking at it for many years. Having said this, I like the second movement much better than the first.
Have you ever played the Finzi Bagatelles? It isn't the hardest music in the world, but it is one of my favorite pieces. I'd also suggest the Martinu Sonatina
and the Copland Sonata (his authorized transcription of the violin sonata).
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Author: TJTG
Date: 2011-07-05 15:58
Clarinetguy has a good point. If you're going to perform these, its going to be different than just working on them. The Bernstein is very difficult to play with in accompanist. That being said, the Finzi Bagatelles come together really well with or without an accompanist. They're rewarding either way.
Also, my teacher had me wait until my Junior (college) year to start working on the Brahms. I'm thankful he didn't let me start on them freshman year. Although I'm glad I played it for my recital, I feel as though I will be working on those pieces for the rest of my life.
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Author: Jack Kissinger
Date: 2011-07-05 16:31
Hi Janlynn,
FYI, you can get free sheet music for both Brahms sonatas (as well as the trio and quintet) here:
http://imslp.org/wiki/Category:Brahms,_Johannes
The Romances were originally written for oboe (which may be why they are technically a little easier than Schumann's Fantasiestucke). There is free sheetmusic, including the clarinet part, which Gary Van Cott says was published at the same time, here. It calls for an A clarinet. Since you say you've done some of the Mozart, it sounds like you probably have an A. If not, according to SheetMusicPlus the Henle edition includes parts for both A and Bb clarinets. I cannot verify that, though. The free version (A clarinet) is here:
http://imslp.org/wiki/3_Romances,_Op.94_%28Schumann,_Robert%29
The three Fantasiestucke (Fantasy Pieces), IMO, lie somewhere between the Romances and the Brahms Sonatas in terms of difficulty. They are beautiful works. A few months ago, I heard Scott Andrews (principal clarinetist of the St. Louis Symphony) perform them with his wife at the piano. Simply exquisite. There is a free copy here:
http://imslp.org/wiki/Fantasiest%C3%BCcke,_Op.73_%28Schumann,_Robert%29
Again the clarinet part is for A clarinet. However, according to SheetMusicPlus, the Henle version includes parts for both Bb and A clarinet. I cannot verify that, either.
If you don't like the free versions, an inexpensive way to obtain both Brahms sonatas, the Schumann Fantasiestucke (but not the Romances), Mendelssohn's sonata, and Weber's Grand Duo Concertante and Variations, Op. 33, is "Masterworks for the Clarinet and Piano," edited by Eric Simon and published by G. Schirmer. According to SheetMusicPlus, this volume also includes both Bb and A clarinet parts for the Schumann. If the Weber you didn't want to do was the Concertino or one of the Concertos, you might look at the Variations. And guess what's here:
http://imslp.org/wiki/Variationen_%C3%BCber_ein_Thema_aus_Silvana,_Op.33_%28Weber,_Carl_Maria_von%29
Maybe no one should perform Brahms for a paying audience until they are emotionally and musically mature but I don't think the same rules should apply to studying Brahms' solo works. There is a great deal to be learned from them. Even if you may not be ready to perform them in Carnegie Hall, I think studying them with a teacher will make you a more intelligent listener to others' performances of the works. And if Katrina's students come back to the works later, when they have matured, they'll have a good basis from which to approach them again. They are works you can stay with throughout your life. If you like them, I say give them a go.
If you like clarinet music from the romantic period but would like something a little easier before you tackle Brahms, I would recommend the Draeseke Sonata. You can get a free copy here to look over:
http://imslp.org/wiki/Clarinet_Sonata,_Op.38_%28Draeseke,_Felix%29
IMO, this work deserves more attention.
Another possibility is the Burgmuller Duo. Free sheetmusic is here:
http://imslp.org/wiki/Duo_for_Piano_and_Clarinet,_Op.15_%28Burgm%C3%BCller,_Norbert%29
After you've done the Brahms, if you would like to try some of the works it spawned, you could do worse than Jenner,
http://imslp.org/wiki/Clarinet_Sonata,_Op.5_%28Jenner,_Gustav%29
or Stanford,
http://imslp.org/wiki/Clarinet_Sonata,_Op.129_%28Stanford,_Charles_Villiers%29
BTW, there are recordings of all these works available.
Best regards,
jnk
Post Edited (2011-07-05 16:53)
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Author: Katrina
Date: 2011-07-05 19:24
Jack's right about returning to Brahms. When I played the first mvt of the 2nd in high school for solo/ensemble contest and also at music camp, it was definitely with the view that I would return to it. I did perform it as part of my junior recital at Oberlin. Again, that may be younger than is "recommended" above, but really, still within the realm of studying it. IMO performing as part of a contest or school recital is definitely part of studying a piece!
And when I give a student any of these types of works I always tell them they will never stop studying them. I even tell them that about the Baermann scales and the Rose etudes and studies.
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Author: TJTG
Date: 2011-07-05 22:49
Nothing like returning to a Rose etude to make you realize how far you've come and how far you need to go.
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Author: luca1
Date: 2011-07-06 02:22
Jack - you're awesome!
A wealth of information, and sage advice!
Thank you.
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Author: janlynn
Date: 2011-09-02 14:09
I have finally decided on my next piece. it is Scene and Air from Luisa di Montfort by Michael Bergson, Op.82. its in the book Concert and Contest Collection. Rubank, by Voxman. To be performed in January.
Any thoughts...comments.......?
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Author: Bob Bernardo
Date: 2011-09-04 08:32
With the level that you are I'd pick one of them and challenge yourself to Spohr. The challenge is learning the altisimo register at a pretty fast clip. I always felt you should be playing more than one piece at a time because you really can't play one piece at a recital. Since I haven't heard you play there is also the Copland Concerto. This too is difficult and lots of fun. He wrote it to be played more of a jazz piece. I had the honor to play under Copland, not the concerto, but he was really cool. His goal was for people to have fun playing his pieces. If that means slowing down to hit all of the notes that was fine. So if you decide to try it take it slow for a bit.
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Author: janlynn
Date: 2011-09-05 16:13
Hi Bob - see my post above. I finally decided what piece i'm going to play. posted above.
The way our "recital" works is this......
I am also in her clarinet ensemble. The clarinet ensemble usually performs one half of the program, and the members can play a solo or duet for the other half if they wish.
so its not a "full" recital. we share the program.
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