 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: MandyCarlsson
Date: 2011-06-20 17:18
Hello all,
I am revisiting the classic, "40 Studies for Clarinet" and I would LOVE some tips on creating a smooth transition on the note sequence contained in measure 2 (and repeated throughout the piece). I normally have a difficult time with creating a clean, beautiful tone on intervals. I warm up using the Abato Study interval exercise and I am trying SO hard to get better. It also depends on the piece as to *how* I sound. For whetever reason, I have ALWAYS had a difficult time with Study #1, in the Rose collection.
I will link the piece for you to view. I would love some tips people. My embrasure remains consistent, I don't slap my fingers down onto the keys.... I am So frustrated. I must be missing something. I have even tried different reeds. I can hit the transitions with a RIco 3, but the high notes sounds shrill. I am now working with Prestini 3, but these reeds seem to make the high notes squeek slightly and they sounds more flat than with the Rico. Normally, I am sharp and have to adjust my clarinet barrel (Noblet 27 series).
http://www.free-scores.com/download-sheet-music.php?pdf=20284
Link to Rose Studies online.
Thanks for any tips!
Mandy
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Author: clarinettist1104
Date: 2011-06-20 19:08
I too struggled with this etude. The slurs on this etude, for me, are still not consistent. Naturally, since the air has further to go to exit the instrument (the C) it will need more power. Not much, but more air, released at precisely the time you add the fingers to slur down to the C, should clean it up a bit.
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Author: Katrina
Date: 2011-06-20 19:45
In 1984, my then-teacher assigned me this etude. Initially she used it as an intro to the Bonade legato style of lifting fingers high, setting them down easily, and connecting very smoothly with air.
I was assigned measures 8 & 9 first, measures 3 & 4 second, and 1 & 2 third. The assignment was to play each note in these measures at a half-note length, presumably at the quarter=76 marked in the score. I still go back to these to check my legato style, in addition to the "Broken Chords" #4-1/2 in Baermann.
It's hard for many of us to play smooth legato. The second measure of this etude is particularly difficult because the C is more resistant, and increasingly so, than the notes which alternate. My suggestion is to play the less-resistant notes with the idea that they are as resistant as the C. The C will usually be clearer, smoother, and less disruptive with this idea.
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Author: MandyCarlsson
Date: 2011-06-21 07:19
Thanks to you both for your input. 
Just read this discussion from 2006. My plan is to hunker down and work on "soft/squeezing", Bonade style of legato fingering.
I'll let you know how it goes. Fingers crossed, my frustration will abate a tad. I hope so.
Link to past discussion:
http://test.woodwind.org/oboe/BBoard/read.html?f=1&i=207607&t=207607
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Author: Hank Lehrer
Date: 2011-06-21 22:20
Hi,
I spent many weeks on this page back in about 1965 with Fred Cohen back at Kent State University. I think I could probably still play much of that etude from memory.
Fred was a great teacher but more importantly, a student of Bonade's. So, I knew that was how Bonade taught things and still to this day, look back on Fred's work as a major event in my musucal life.
I also had several lessons from Ed Marks at BGSU. Ed, still a great and active player here in the Toledo area, was a student of Gigliotti so I learned some very important things.
Mandy, the best tip is remember these stories and practice slowly and carefully.
HRL
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Author: mrn
Date: 2011-06-22 01:20
Quote:
My embrasure remains consistent, I don't slap my fingers down onto the keys.... I am So frustrated. I must be missing something.
Yes, you haven't mentioned the most important thing of all, air support.
The technical reason why these slurred transitions are hard to make cleanly is that when you go between "long pipe" and "short pipe" notes on the clarinet, the air resistance presented by the clarinet changes dramatically. To make the transition smoothly, your air support has to make a slight compensation.
The problem with this is that without sufficient practice, it's really easy to either overcompensate or undercompensate, and the end result is that the reed stops vibrating or becomes unstable. What you have to do is develop a "feel" for how this works.
It's not something you really have to do in a totally conscious way, but it does require practice to achieve. It's a bit a like riding a bicycle. To keep your balance on a bicycle, you have to make little adjustments of your steering and center of gravity. You don't think about these specific movements, though. You simply think about what you want to accomplish and your brain takes care of the rest through a process of sensory feedback and learned response--it's quite remarkable, really. Engineers call this sort of thing "feedback control"--it's the same principle behind the cruise control in your car, but it's also what enables all of us to walk, talk, and perform all kinds of activities that require fine motor skills.
With cruise control, for instance, there's a sensor that detects the speed the car is traveling and there's a mechanism for opening the throttle in response. What happens is that the car compares the speed the car is traveling at with some internal speed setting (the speed you select when you push "set") and if it's starting to get too slow it opens the throttle (likewise, it closes the throttle when the speed starts to get too high).
Your brain uses a similar kind of system to balance on a bicycle--it compares the desired result (the sensation of being balanced atop a bicycle) with sensory information and makes adjustments (mostly without your being aware of them) to maintain the desired state.
So what I would suggest is plenty of slow practice, but focus your attention on what you want to accomplish (a smooth transition with steady air and reed vibration) and what the sensation of a smooth transition feels like, rather than on individual specific actions used to achieve it.
In particular, I would not be overly concerned with finger movements as a means of producing smooth legato. While I do find myself sometimes "squeezing" with my fingers when negotiating a big slurred leap, from my perspective, it is more of a byproduct or side-effect of what I am trying to accomplish with the air--the same as if I happen to move the rest of my body along with the music as I play--a sort of general tension/relaxation. I still think it's more of a habit or side-effect, rather than a technique in itself. In the end it's the air that counts.
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Author: luca1
Date: 2011-06-22 16:03
I'm not sure why it helps, but I find that passages with large intervals between notes are made easy by practicing them playing double-lip style. Give it a try - the "connections" just come out smoother .... then take that "feeling" back to your single-lip playing.
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Author: mrn
Date: 2011-06-22 16:44
luca1 wrote:
> I'm not sure why it helps, but I find that passages with large
> intervals between notes are made easy by practicing them
> playing double-lip style. Give it a try - the "connections"
> just come out smoother .... then take that "feeling" back to
> your single-lip playing.
I know what you're talking about, although my teacher took a different route in getting me to do that without actually using double-lip. What she said was to apply downward pressure with your upper lip and/or upper teeth. What that does is prevent your bottom lip from having to bear the weight of the instrument (or, at least, keep from it from bearing as much of it) and choking up on the reed.
I second what you say about taking that "feeling" back to your single playing. When you do it "right" it feels different. The trick is to make that feeling a habit.
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Author: Buster
Date: 2011-06-22 21:42
Mandy,
***The advice you got from Michael(mrn) and luca1 is spot on.*** It can be so easy to get caught up in the "I must do this" or "I must not do this" that you kill the possibility of success before you even start.
I went back to your first post:
<I am trying SO hard to get better. It also depends on the piece as to *how* I sound. For whetever reason, I have ALWAYS had a difficult time with Study #1, in the Rose collection.>
Trying SO hard is an admirable approach, but think about that for a second. The idea is for these intervals to sound/feel as though they are produced with no effort what so ever. (Obviously a metaphor, but a very apt one.) Trying HARD to make the interval FLUID is a bit of a counterproductive way to approach this. Even the mindset you have has such a profound affect. You stated you have ALWAYS had difficulty, and that it depends on the piece as to *how* you sound. Sounds like you're dooming yourself to failure before you even start. Your effort is admirable, but simply needs to be redirected.
Erase any previous memories you have of this etude. Forget what anybody has said about legato being "difficult" on the clarinet. Difficult is pointless. Wipe the slate clean. We need to find your way to produce the *feeling* rather than focusing on the mechanics right now. (Mechanics are for the teachers to worry about.)
What Michael wrote about letting your brain learn to make adjustments automatically is spot on. It does sound counter-intuitive that you are teaching yourself to do something unconsciously, but that is what practice is supposed to do. (There are reasons why it feels and becomes unconscious, but to explain them would ruin all the fun!)
Let's take that second measure and do exactly what Michael suggests- take it slow and place your attention on what the fluid interval you want sounds like and feels like. But we are going to change one thing:
We are going to play ascending intervals instead of descending ones. I know, I know, what is the difference? Just forget about all that junk.
Play F, C-G, C-A, C-B, C-C. All still under a slur, but focus your attention to a fluid ascending interval and the feeling you want. (If it helps, think of the first F as a 16th note pick-up and place the first C on the downbeat.) The downward intervals don't exist; just play the upward leaps and simply connect them with no space. Play it this way several times at a mp.
Now, we'll play the same sequence with one change: We want to play each C with a slight emphasis. If we are at a mp, each C will sound perhaps 1/4 of a dynamic louder. (mp + 1/4:-) Simply think this change and hear it happen. You don't need to push more air, just think it, hear it, and feel it. Repeat as much as you want- simply observe, feel, and allow it to happen.
Now play the 2nd measure as written and feel what happens.
(If you want "to use" the Bonade legato-fingers, let me know, as they need to be properly contextualized.)
-Jason
Post Edited (2011-06-22 21:48)
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Author: Buster
Date: 2011-06-22 21:55
That'll be $50 by the way. I accept cash, cashiers check or money-orders.
:p
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Author: Old Geezer
Date: 2011-06-22 22:09
These studies were written by Rose for his advanced students at the Paris Conservatory. Since you say you're an "intermediate clarinetist" may be you're not quite ready for these yet. Have you studied the Klose etudes in his method...how about Lazarus intermediate etudes in his method.
If we skip a phase of development when we're first learning something it almost always comes back to harrass us later.
Not to be negative...just a thought. Good luck to you!
Clarinet Redux
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Author: Buster
Date: 2011-06-23 00:49
Old Geezer,
Please stop letting your name be a self-fulfilling prophecy.
"Not to be negative"???
Then what are you trying to accomplish. You're interpreting somebody's words, "intermediate clarinetist", for them and then implying they are not ready for a certain piece of music.
Wouldn't it be better to try and actually help someone?
......or if not just don't post
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Author: Bob Phillips
Date: 2011-06-25 15:04
Buster,
I didn't hear any negativism in Old Geezer's caution about being "ready" for the Rose 40. I've been playing for decades and have often found that I'm not prepared to take on some of the challenging pieces and studies I've encountered in the last few years.
This is a flaw in my training.
When this happens, I've found two paths to getting the new piece under control.
I can, with my teacher, tough it out and spend weeks getting through it. Often times the teacher holds a key that enables something that seems beyond me... an alternate fingering, or a pinky switch two beat's before they get all tangled up, missing support...
My teacher has taken time to write etudes to help me over rocky spots.
Alternatively, I may be able to put a name to the challenge I'm having, look it up --and spend some time learning something that is new to me.
A good teacher would connect the student's problems to a missing building block and show her how to fix it.
Book 4 of the Kroepsch Studies is full of such problems for me. They are something that I'd never put in front of, say, a 3rd year student.
Bob Phillips
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Author: Buster
Date: 2011-06-25 17:18
Bob,
I do agree that throwing certain literature at a student is misguided, but that burden does lie on the teacher, not us, here. I would never throw The Cavallini Caprices or Jean-Jean at an "intermediate" or ill-prepared clarinetist. (The Klose studies suggested are as "difficult" as the Rose 40 I would propose.)
However I do have a few problems with his posting.
-First, the term "intermediate" is impossible to put into context here. Whatever connotation I, or anyone else, puts into a word as such is presuming quite a bit. (While some may consider themselves "professionals" I, or you, may consider them "intermediate." It is quite subjective.) Also, from viewing her earlier posts, she is not a beginner, but a woman that is returning to school to study for a Music Ed. degree; she has played for some 20-odd years if I remember correctly. That was where his interpretation fell short for me as there is no context.
-On THIS Board we need to take more care in what we suggest at times. If Mandy had asked for differing literature, then Geezer's responses would have been more apt; but she was asking for help with legato intervals, a basic skill. That it was contained in a Rose Etude was ancillary. In fact, this particular etude, in the circles I have frequented, is used quite often for "legato work."- even used without addressing the other studies in the book. This could even be a great etude to address a basic skill missed in the past! Also, merely suggesting that someone "isn't ready" for something can have a very detrimental effect on their psyche. Tell them it is difficult and it will be.
-Separating "fundamentals" from an actual composition (actually an arrangement in this case) has the effect of separating technique from "musicality." I would prefer approach these 2 notions as the same thing. This is one large problem I see with the way many teach- learn the "fundamentals", then we can start to play music...... I simply don't view technical problems as a separate thing from musicality problems. So perhaps I jumped the gun a bit with my reply. ...And perhaps my views are not held by many.
You wrote, in part:
< "Often times the teacher holds a key that enables something that seems beyond me... an alternate fingering, or a pinky switch two beat's before they get all tangled up, missing support..."
"A good teacher would connect the student's problems to a missing building block and show her how to fix it." >
I agree in part, but would change a few things. -"A good teacher would find an etude that contains a missing building block in its' context, and present the options of how it can be addressed; affording the student the ability to experientially learn rather than forcing my way upon them."
And I don't hold and guard the key as there is no key! I hold the responsibility to tailor my teaching to each student- that is the key! Guiding them to progress without them ever knowing that anything is "difficult."
To illustrate.... At times, presenting a student with a piece that is a bit "over their head" without telling them so, and guiding them through it..... well they end up learning a great deal about how they play the clarinet, learn a "difficult" piece, and progress forward without ever having known that what they did could be considered too "difficult" for them. (I have used this exact etude with "beginners" to great ends.)
Michael posted some wonderful information, and I gave one specific "approach" I have used with students to illustrate it--- for this one specific measure. I tried to write it in a way that left out hard descriptors to allow Mandy to learn the way herself, bit just with a slight "push" from me.
Normally, I would not even write anything that specific here as we cannot truly teach on this board; we simply can present facts, options, and paths in most cases: not "the way." I thought very carefully about what I was writing, and to have it followed by a seemingly impulsively written post annoyed me a bit.
I apologize Mr. Geezer (perhaps I could learn you name?) but I would still suggest that "what needs to be said" should be carefully thought out.
With respect,
Jason
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Author: MandyCarlsson
Date: 2011-07-11 06:55
I appreciate EVERYONE'S input. Thank you all.
I need to clarify my label of "intermediate clarinetist".
I played regularly until the birth of my second child almost 4 years ago. I am out of practice, my fingers are not as nimble and my embrasure muscles are sore now that I have resumed playing!
BUT, when I was younger, I would play for hours. I studied with a very talented music instructor, George Roach at CSU-Pueblo (it was USC then) for my entire highschool career, participated in youth symphonies and honor bands. The method books I used were Rubank and he had me work through many of the Rose Etudes. I have a library of books that I also worked in. Once, I considered myself to be quite good and I was even a tad arrogant. (Keep in mind, I was in highschool! Ha. Ha.)
Now I am 33 and have a much more realistic view of my level. I suppose I was "advanced" when I was younger, but at this point in time, I feel it would be fool-hearty to say that. I've been throwing around the idea of starting a video blog of my playing. If I ever get around to it, I will share it and everyone can have a good laugh while they gauge my skill.
Post Edited (2011-07-11 07:00)
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Author: MandyCarlsson
Date: 2011-07-11 07:03
And Jason, can you fly once a week to Colorado and be my teacher? You seem very positive AND realistic. One problem, the lessons would need to be free and I cannot reimburse your travel expenses. Sorry.
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