 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Aleisha
Date: 2011-06-07 13:44
I know there have been many posts about air support, and I'm pretty clear on all of the techniques involved to support well, however I am having trouble isolating the muscles involved without tensing other areas of my body. The tension is especially apparent after a long phrase: my throat, shoulders and lower back are all tense. This prevents me from taking a quick, deep breath and also has developed into a dull pain. I've seen a physio and she suggested I wear a neck strap, but it hasn't seemed to help. I've gone through many breathing exercises with my teacher and I have no trouble performing them relaxed, it's just when I have the resistance from the clarinet that the tension surfaces.
Any help would be great appreciated.
Thank you!
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2011-06-07 14:17
Could it be that the tension you're experiencing is coming from somewhere other than the muscles involved in breathing? Your facial muscles? Your arms, especially forearms from the way you hold the instrument or press on the holes? Maybe your breathing technique isn't causing the problem.
Karl
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2011-06-07 14:30
You've said it yourself, it is when you pick up a clarinet.
Many feel that to produce a beautiful sound on clarinet that you have to physically give of yourself to the point of discomfort.......anywhere and everywhere. The truth is that EVERY point in your body should be COMPLETELY relaxed.......
except
for your lip muscles (all the muscles surrounding the mouthpiece) and (for pushing air out) your abdominal muscles.
Granted the act of holding a clarinet and dealing with the reed and the embouchure and the fingerings and the complexity of the music can easily lead to all sorts of stress (both physical and mental). The real trick is to let go of ALL of it, save for that little bit above.
............Paul Aviles
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Author: Tony Pay ★2017
Date: 2011-06-07 15:57
Paul Aviles wrote:
>> The truth is that EVERY point in your body should be COMPLETELY relaxed.......
except>>
...what you choose NOT to have relaxed.
Come on, how many times do I have to say this?
Tension may be counterproductive when it doesn't contribute to the end result. No one could be more clear about that than I am.
But equally, RELAXATION may be counterproductive when it doesn't contribute to the end result.
Freely chosen body tension may easily be a part of musical expression. There are plenty of wafty, relaxed, competent but ultimately meaningless performances out there too.
Music has many dimensions, and to operate in all of them you may do well to embody other things than relaxation in your posture.
The same applies to body movement. The questions are: is it chosen? and is it appropriate to the music?
Tony
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Author: Claireinet
Date: 2011-06-07 16:40
On line with being suggested a neckstrap - Perhaps you could try doing some light weight lifting exercises.
I used to have horrible problems with with my thumb/hand/arm, to the point where it became painful to play for more than a few minutes. A neckstrap did help some but personally I felt it created tension problems of its own (though some people love neckstraps).
I thought I'd have to compromise and use the strap for the rest of my life. After about a year of the neckstrap I studied with a professor that suggested some simple arm exercises. I was skeptical that they would do anything at all but after a week of the exercises I didn't need my neckstrap and haven't used it since.
You can use very light weights or even none at all, and just do about 5 reps of each exercise a day -- I don't know what the exercises are called but I will try to describe them (maybe there's someone here that will know the names?)
1. arms out front of you with palms up, bend at elbow (bicep curl?)
2. arms straight at sides, palms inward, lift whole arm up to shoulder level and back down
3. done with one arm at a time- arm bent and lifted above/behind head , straighten and return arm to position
4. arms bent in front palms facing you, raise/straighten both arms above head, palms will rotate outward so that they are facing out(forward) when the arm is straight
5. lie on the floor - palms up and arms straight out from shoulders, lift above chest
The exercises may or may not help in your case, but could be worth a try if your problems are only occurring when the instrument is involved. Tension from the hands can quickly spread throughout the body.
The other thing I can think of -- when you are blowing into the clarinet and "supporting"the air think of your lower abdomen as containing a balloon that you are trying to gently release air from by keeping the abdominal muscles expanded as you exhale (as opposed to suddenly letting go of the top of a balloon and it flying all over the room).
Post Edited (2011-06-07 16:41)
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Author: EEBaum
Date: 2011-06-07 18:20
Too much attention directed to the mechanisms of breathing may be contributing. The body is incredibly complex, and it's easy for "trying to fix" one problem to cause several others.
Recently, I've been undoing a lot of problems I caused by trying to micromanage a bunch of breathing and postural issues. The most effective fix I've found is to focus my attention on being completely, enthusiastically involved in the desired end result rather than fixating on the minutiae of what's making it happen.
Try getting yourself into a "ready to pounce" state... like playing a game of whack-a-mole, or a kitten preparing to attack a cockroach. Alert, ready for action, playful, braced yet loose, your attention focused forward to the task in front of you.
Play with joyful reckless abandon. Practice as an investigation of curiosity rather than a drill toward perfection. If you can get yourself into this place, a lot of tension-related problems will likely resolve themselves.
-Alex
www.mostlydifferent.com
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Author: Ed Palanker
Date: 2011-06-07 18:52
There could be many answers to you problem, Being tense in any one part of your body when you play may add to tension in other parts of your body. It sound to me like it may be at least partially a mental problem, becoming tense when you play. One of the most often parts of the body that feels tense when a person becomes tense is the stomach area. That's in playing an instrument, singing in public, giving a speech, getting up to bat in baseball or being in a play, etc. That's why some people have actually gotten sick before going on stage. It may not be a physical problem. Try taking a small drink of beer or wine before playing to see if it relaxes you, or perhaps something your doctor can prescribe that is safe but helps you relax but allows you to remain alert, it's at least worth a try. ESP eddiesclarinet.com
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Author: annev
Date: 2011-06-07 20:35
I'd like to pass along a suggestion that was made to me (from this board!) while I was also struggling with mid-back tension. There is a book called, "Playing (less) Hurt, An Injury Prevention Guide for Musicians" by Janet Horvarth, which has some very useful stretching and strengthening exercises, which you can use at home and also in your chair at rehearsal during breaks. I've been amazed at the difference it has made for me, especially during long practice sessions. Tension to the point of dull pain is probably your body asking you to pay attention before a more serious injury develops (be kind to yourself!).
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Author: Arnoldstang
Date: 2011-06-07 23:55
I would try practicing with very soft reeds. As part of your practicing use a 1 1/2 or strength 2 rico reed. Practice low register long phrases and see what happens physically. Don't worry about tone quality.
If excessive tension is showing up I would suggest stop supporting as you know it.
Freelance woodwind performer
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Author: Nessie1
Date: 2011-06-08 12:22
Ed Palanker -
Forgive me but, much though I respect and enjoy many of your comments on this board, I think that do suggest that anyone begins to rely on alcohol or drugs before playing is somewhat irresponsible.
Vanessa.
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Author: samohan245
Date: 2011-06-08 22:59
A good breathing exercise for isolating and strengthening individual quadrants(quadrants being diaphragm, lower back, chest, upper back) is the following;
lie on a hard solid surface with your hands under your lower back.
take a relaxed breath in making sure you use all of your quadrants.
take note of how each quadrant responds to your inhale, and repeat until you have even distribution between your quadrants.
the lying down is for the person to feel each quadrant fill more clearly and easily than standing or sitting down
-im a breath fanatic (:
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2011-06-09 00:20
Dear Buster,
Perhaps Mr. Pay would be a better person to ask about your eyebrows. I tend to think they have nothing to do with producing a sound on a clarinet. My comments above were just a short hand remedy to the given situation where too much tension was involved.
Now if we all just RELAX and have a nice aperitif, we will all realize that I was right.
.....................Paul Aviles
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Author: Tony Pay ★2017
Date: 2011-06-09 00:24
Paul Aviles wrote:
>> Now if we all just RELAX and have a nice aperitif, we will all realize that I was right.>>
You are almost never right.
Tony
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Author: Aleisha
Date: 2011-06-09 01:31
Thank you all for your suggestions and wise words.
I have another query: someone has recommended I take a few Alexander Technique lessons to make me aware of what I'm doing while I'm playing and (hopefully) learn how to play comfortably. Has anybody learned Alexander Technique? Or is there an alternative way to learn how to avoid injury?
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Author: Buster
Date: 2011-06-09 03:12
Aleisha
Alexander Technique is generally not something you learn yourself (unless you want to be an instructor of it.) You go to a practitioner of it for guidance.
The main idea of Alexander Technique is that a studied practitioner, who has a knowledge of anatomy and how the body is designed to function, works with you as a guide: a guide to help you learn to use your body in a "proper" anatomical manner. (It is not a "technique" that is only applied to musicians. Athletes as well as many other disciplines have "used" it.) The man who "invented" it (Mr. Alexander obviously) was a dramatic orator that lost his voice. In studying his own body and anatomy over many years he found a way to regain his ability to publicly speak, and consequently applied the knowledge he gained in the workings of the body to "invent" Alexander Technique. I cannot speak of its' merits as I have never worked with a practitioner. You can find much more information in the link below than I could provide.
http://www.alexandertechnique.com
As for learning how to avoid injury, well that's hard to address. If you don't have a clear idea of what has caused a specific injury you really can't avoid its' re-occurrence. In my case, what I am dealing with was not caused by clarinet playing, yet it is exacerbated by playing, and it limits my abilities as well. I also have limitations in everyday life, and certain actions can aggravate/cause any pain I feel. For instance, lifting anything of weight can cause an extreme amount of pain that feels quite similar to a heart attack (fortunately it is not.) In playing, certain actions have the same affect so I must be quite aware of what I am doing. (Which is why I perhaps over-reacted to the notion that complete relaxation is misguided at best.)
If looking for a way to learn body relaxation there is a book which could maybe give you some background. the Relaxation Response by Herbert Benson, M.D. This book has over time (some 30-odd years) become the "industry-standard" for a basic scientific approach to relaxation and its' benefits.
Hope this has been of some guidance-Jason
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Author: EEBaum
Date: 2011-06-09 08:39
I have mixed opinions about Alexander Technique. I used to be all for it, especially shortly after a couple weeks of classes early last year. However, (and it may not have turned out this way if I'd continued classes) coupled with my obsessive nature, I ended up in a mindset of overthinking every last iota of posture and positioning and motion, to the point of significantly increasing stress and tension throughout.
Lately, I regard AT as an incredibly complicated solution to a simple problem. While I think the guiding principles (let your body move how it's supposed to) are sound, the practice can be counterproductive, and can cause very internally-focused people to become even more internally-focused, exacerbating the problem. Effectively, "just chill" gets me a lot more mileage, and doesn't have me worrying whether I'm doing it right.
My recommendation would be to do things that are intense and encourage daring, outgoing engagement and loosening of unproductive inhibitions. Play some team sports. Lift some weights. Run around and scream. Dance. Do handstands. Learn a martial art. Sprint up hills or on a bicycle. On occasion, have a couple glasses of wine on an empty stomach. See just how loud you can play a high F#, tone be damned.
When I do any of these things (well, I do most of them, anyways), the tension melts away. Getting into that mindset as often as possible, in my case, has been worlds more productive than any direct methods of trying to relieve tension. If I "try to sit up straight" or otherwise pay direct attention to trying to "fix" things I'm doing, the problem almost always gets worse.
What I would recommend, in addition to the above that are more about frame of mind, is to incorporate a regime of mobility exercises, as well as soft-tissue work. This will help ensure that, when you're not manually cranking up the tension, your body is free to assume a neutral posture.
In specific, I recommend:
Soft tissue: Get a professional deep tissue massage if you can manage it. On your own, get a foam roller, lacrosse ball, super balls. Look up "self myofascial release". It'll hurt. Be gentle.
Static stretches: "Stretching" by Bob Anderson. Special attention to hip flexor stretches.
Range of motion: For your major joints (ankles, hips, wrists, shoulders), move them full range in circles every day, as many times in each direction as you are old. For wrists and fingers, I find gently moving them in circles with the other hand very effective. You can also spell the alphabet rather than circles with feet and hands.
Dynamic Stretches: Tons of stuff to try, Google is your friend. If you're willing to plonk some cash, I've found the videos Magnificent Mobility and Assess & Correct to be worthwhile investments. They're focused towards athletes, but applicable to anyone. A&C also has a thorough soft tissue manual. The routine in MM clears up back stiffness for me without fail, as long as I'm not a non-functioning ball of stress, at which point sleep is the only solution.
As for tension while breathing in particular, try leaning forward a bit when you play. Works for me, may or may not work for you.
-Alex
www.mostlydifferent.com
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2011-06-09 12:06
EEBaum wrote:
> Lately, I regard AT as an incredibly complicated solution to a
> simple problem. While I think the guiding principles (let your
> body move how it's supposed to) are sound, the practice can be
> counterproductive, and can cause very internally-focused people
> to become even more internally-focused, exacerbating the
> problem. Effectively, "just chill" gets me a lot more mileage,
> and doesn't have me worrying whether I'm doing it right.
>
I heard a radio interview yesterday with Charlie Manuel, manager of the Philadelphia Phillies. He had a comment about the bad effects of too much focus by players on the "mechanics" of hitting. Although it's about baseball, it may be tangentially appropriate here:
"We try to stay away from mechanics until you really have to. If I don’t have to talk mechanics to you, it’s better. The more you get confused...when you go to the plate and you’re standing there, 'where’s my hands, where’s my feet, where’s this, where’s that,' you’re not gonna hit. Come on back, sit down with me, because you’re not gonna hit."
Karl
Post Edited (2011-06-09 12:18)
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Author: Paul Miller
Date: 2011-06-10 03:30
I had the same problem as you for the longest time until I took a few lessons with one of the really great voice teachers at the SF Conservatory. I'll try to explain what we worked on below, but if you take only one thing away from this post, it's that you should take a lesson with a really great voice teacher and ask him or her to pay specific attention to breathing and air support.
Generally speaking, you want to a.) make sure your air is always moving, in or out, b.) keep your abs engaged but not tight, c.) don't worry about your diaphragm, d.) try to be aware of what your intercostal muscles are doing.
All you have to do is expand. Your stomach should NOT drop, the expansion should come from your ribs, front, side, and back. Not your stomach, because then you have to slam your abs back into place to get appropriate air pressure, and it makes the sound bumpy. Just expand from the ribs like you would in a typical involuntary breath. It's not a loud breath, by the way, this is fairly quiet.
So, again, the process is, thinking to yourself... "I have air.... feel my intercostals.... EXPAND"
You can check to see if you're expanding from the ribs by putting a belt around your chest, right over the sternum. Not too tightly, but enough to know when you're expanding in all directions.
Also, don't tank up, don't overpressurize yourself, and don't hang on to the air. Allow the air to come in, and when you finish inhaling, let the air immediately start to move back out - the air is always moving. You can start the sound by controlling the reed.
Now, doing all this without the horn, let the air start moving out and begin making an "sssssssss" noise. Once the air is established, transition from "ssss" to "ah" and sing a scale or something. When you do this right, there will be a fullness to your voice and a mild, natural vibrato to the sound. Just think about the vowel and don't try to place your voice anywhere.
After doing this a couple of times, stick the horn in your face and repeat the process. Remember to keep the air moving at all times, expand and contract naturally, and don't overpressurize yourself.
Edit: It takes a while to get used to doing things this way because we're all so used to "taking" a breath. When you're really "on your breath" with this approach, you'll find that tone, response, articulation... it all becomes much better. I learned about this a week before a big bass clarinet audition and made semis... and wouldn't have if I hadn't learned to breathe in this way.
Post Edited (2011-06-10 03:34)
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Author: Paul Miller
Date: 2011-06-10 10:37
Buster,
I've bookmarked this page and will try to answer your questions about this tomorrow sometime.
Cheers,
Paul
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Author: Paul Miller
Date: 2011-06-10 17:32
Buster,
So, I've only had a few lessons with this teacher and I'm not necessarily sure that I could explain the technique very well in text, but I'll try to answer your questions as best as I can.
Air resistance: Yes, we definitely have more resistance in the airstream, but a well-matched reed/mouthpiece/ligature combination as well as a tightly focused airstream (high tongue position) seem to take care of the problem.
Abs: So, beside the normal function of assisting with posture, the abs are engaged just enough to encourage your breathing to come from an expansion of the ribcage. Think of this more as breathing sideways rather than front to back. If you go for a run and really get your heart pumping, it helps to put your hands on top of your heat because it allows your ribs to expand outward and you can get a greater volume of air. This is the same concept. You want the majority of the expanding motion to come from your intercostal muscles rather than from your abdominals. By keeping your abs active and engaged - but not tight or clenched - you are already have enough air pressure to send a focused airstream into the horn immediately following the expansion.
Dynamics: So, just like anything, you have to play with this a bit. Generally, yes, more pressure in the abs will give you a fuller/louder sound. I sort of just tell myself "softer" if I want to play and it happens...
Tone: I'll generally mess around with some combination of (in order) speed/pressure of air, tongue position, hardness of articulation, horn angle, and jaw pressure. The breath doesn't determine the tone so much as it supports the tone, I think you ought to be able to get most of your tonal detailing done by changing the configuration of your embouchure and more or less air support. Usually I just tell myself "softer" or "louder" or "bouncier" and it just happens, then I have to go through the mental checklist of things that I just did and memorize them. But through all of this, this "singer's breath" stays the same - expansion from the ribs, air is always moving, nothing is static.
The "sssssaaaaaaaaaaaaaa" exercise/scales/vocalization is part of my daily warmup now. My neighbors must think I'm insane (which is probably true). I think the nice thing about having a specific way of breathing is that it gives me a solid base to work from - and a place to return to when things get out of hand. I'm finding that my breath is stacking up a lot less when I work this way.
Edited for clarity
PS: I did my masters and postgrad diploma with Luis Baez, but I have taken a bunch of lessons with Carey. He's a really incredible musician, a super nice guy, and one of those truly outstanding teachers. He references Ormand very frequently in his lessons; I think I should get out to Lawrence sometime and try to get a few lessons with Fred....
Post Edited (2011-06-10 17:36)
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Author: annev
Date: 2011-06-12 02:35
Hello Paul,
I've been following your posts on this thread with interest. I've been taking voice lessons for about nine years (I started with voice before clarinet) and your post reminded me of something that you might enjoy trying. When you do your sssss/ah exercise, take your initial abdominal breath and then support through the entire ssss/ah exhalation until you have no air left. At that point, relax everything, and you'll probably find that your body will automatically, effortlessly and quietly refill with a good abdominal/expanded breath. Singers use this technique, which is an active exhalation (supported sound on the breath) followed by passive inhalation. It's a very different feeling from "taking a breath" and gives a lot of both support and freedom to all that constantly moving air!
The more I learn about the clarinet, the more I find parallels with voice techniques. It's a really interesting connection.
Post Edited (2011-06-12 02:37)
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Author: Arnoldstang
Date: 2011-06-12 03:37
I'm not sure the body "automatically refills". It certainly does automatically put a 1/4 tank of air back in but I wouldn't label this a "refill".
Freelance woodwind performer
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Author: Arnoldstang
Date: 2011-06-12 18:31
Hi Jason, Nice touch at the end of your response to my post. "With respect" I don't ask for any respect from participants of the BB. and for the most part I take it that I'm pretty successful on this count. I also don't need your welcoming me to participate as this is not your call or mine. I was merely questioning a choice of words.... if I was guilty of quibbling, not reading all the posts thoroughly and thus showing disrespect I do apologize for my impetuous post.
Without respect or disrespect, Arnold
Freelance woodwind performer
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Author: Tony Pay ★2017
Date: 2011-06-12 21:48
Alex wrote:
>> OR, you could treat every move you make as part of a dance. Probably get more mileage out of that. Don't get in the way.>>
That's not a good move, if you're trying to establish the truth of the matter.
Tony
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Author: Tony Pay ★2017
Date: 2011-06-12 22:21
EEBaum wrote:
>> Care to elaborate, Tony? >>
You first.
Tony
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Author: EEBaum
Date: 2011-06-12 23:07
I think I've already established my thesis in posts above, Tony, unless there are some you'd care for me to elaborate on.
I'm not looking to establish the truth of the matter, because I don't think it's necessary, and may actually be counterproductive, when trying to relieve tension. Letting the matter resolve itself without unnecessary intervention is often more effective. The "don't pick at it, or it'll never heal" principle.
-Alex
www.mostlydifferent.com
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Author: Paul Miller
Date: 2011-06-13 01:25
Buster,
As far as vocal breathing technique is concerned, there's definitely some translation involved when using the technique with clarinet - it'll never be exactly the same. I haven't taken the time (yet) to read the longish article you posted in detail, but Tony certainly knows what he's doing and I'm sure the information is very good.
As for your problem, your dynamics are changing because you're changing the volume of air per unit of time that's going through the instrument. If you're trying to get an extremely long note at the same dynamic level then you'll have to increase the tension or flex in your abs to compensate for the decreasing volume in of air in your lungs - that is, as air leaves your body, you maintain the same amount of air pressure (and by extension, the same dynamic level) by making the space smaller.
But, it's pretty subtle. You're probably just flexing too much, too soon... also it's hard to determine how loudly you're playing when you're focusing on something else. Maybe working with a decibel reader could help?
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Author: Tony Pay ★2017
Date: 2011-06-13 05:38
Jason wrote, in part:
>> I still cannot discern why I can change sound intensity at a constant dynamic with only changes in abdominal contraction. I am not consciously changing anything else "upstream" (at least that I can feel). The resultant change is less than what I can achieve when coupling this with oral cavity, tongue position etc... changes, but is there none the less....I need to do some more reading, examine anatomy diagrams again, and perhaps change my reasoning because there must be something I am missing.>>
We did talk about this a bit in that long thread. My contribution was here:
http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/read.html?f=20&i=1171&t=1132
Tony
Post Edited (2011-06-13 05:43)
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Author: Paul Miller
Date: 2011-06-15 08:13
Buster: my apologies, I haven't really been following this particular thread over the last couple of days. Seems like you've written a good amount of material, it's going to take me a little bit to grok all of this and come up with a response, but I will definitely get to it tomorrow.
Also, no, you haven't offended me and I'm not sitting here confused =) We're good.
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Author: Paul Miller
Date: 2011-06-16 01:14
She started her career as a light soprano before moving into the lyric soprano rep.
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Author: Paul Miller
Date: 2011-06-16 01:34
Ok, I read through your posts, and I think we've gotten beyond the scope of what I was trying to get across. It's probably my fault for trying to explain too much at the outset.
This approach to breathing is essentially the same thing that happens when you take an involuntary breath; the only difference is that you control the timing. It's not really about what happens while you're making sound.
So, to recap: have a high chest, moderately/lightly engaged abs, and expand from the intercostals. Your diaphragm will do what it naturally does, and once you've gotten enough air, just turn it around right away and send it into the instrument.
At this point, just play the way you normally would.
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