 The Clarinet BBoard
|
Author: ThatPerfectReed
Date: 2011-06-08 18:10
Barring the signature series line of Legere Reeds, I've been unsuccessful at achieving notes like Double High C on various strenghs of non-Signature Legere Reeds.
Quicker to blame myself, not Legere, have any of you experienced similar problems, and if so, how have you rectified them, short of taking in rediculous amounts of mouthpiece just to hit such high notes?
Many thanks in advance for your kind and knowledgable thoughts.
Maybe I just need to hear that it's me that pretty much alone has this issue.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Katrina
Date: 2011-06-08 19:04
I only have issues when the reed is older (softer) and it closes due to the high note.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2011-06-08 19:35
I find altissimo above F#6 more difficult, or at least more problematic (though not unplayable), on Legere than on well-balanced cane.
Karl
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: sfalexi
Date: 2011-06-08 20:32
When you say "barring the signature series", does that mean you can hit it on the signature series? Or that you haven't tried the signautre series yet?
If you can hit everything on the signature series, just use that. If you haven't tried it, try it and see if it works for you.
Alexi
US Army Japan Band
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: kilo
Date: 2011-06-08 21:08
I haven't run into any problems using Quebec 3ΒΌ on a Grabner K13.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: ThatPerfectReed
Date: 2011-06-09 02:37
Sorry if I didn't make myself clear Alexi.
I have successfullly used the Signature series to achieve very high note objectives.
Perhaps you're right--maybe complaining about what doesn't work, when alternatives like the Signature series (not to mention good cane and Forestone synthetics) exist is "wasted time."
Futher, maybe the question is best posed to Guy Legere as to why this might be the case--without asking him to divulge proprietary information on the difference in composition between the Signature and non-Signature series.
I guess I'm just a clarinet curiosity junkie who enjoys some of the science behind the instrument.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: sfalexi
Date: 2011-06-09 03:03
Aha! I understand now. As I understand, the legere reed comes in different styles. And each reed has its own characteristics. Being that as it may, it may end up that some people prefer one style to another, or have a mouthpiece that seems to work with one style or another. Much like you have Vandoren V12, blue box, V16, or Rico, Rico Royal, Rico Grand Select, etc. etc.
I'm just gonna figure what works for one person may not work for another. FWIW, when I've messed around with legere's (coming back around another time as we speak and working with the signature series right now), I found the "standard" legere to get worse for me, the higher I went. Less controllable, harsher at louder dynamics. Right now, the signature seems to be working very well with me and my current mouthpiece. I haven't tried the quebec or ontario, but since the signature is working so well, I doubt I'll bother unless I happen upon some convention where I can try it for free or something.
I wouldn't say it's wasted time. You found what works for you, but are curious as to the differences in them. Not a waste, just trying to educate yourself about a product. It's only a waste of time if you do it during your practice time. After practicing is ok. ![[wink]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/smilie3.gif) I was just confused as to what you meant by your phrasing.
Alexi
US Army Japan Band
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Bob Phillips
Date: 2011-06-09 16:07
The instrument air column vibrations (mostly) determine the pitch.
In order for the reed to resonate (follow) the air column vibration, it must respond FASTER than this forced vibration. The reed, when "plucked" (doing that will probably break the reed), must "flap like a diving board*" at a higher frequency than the one you want to produce with the clarinet.
The "diving board" frequency of a reed depends upon its shape and two of its material properties. These are its stiffness and its density. If you go through the agony of constructing a mathematical model of the reed's vibration, you will factor out the ratio of stiffness-to-density. (Actually, the square root of stiffness divided by density.)
Cane is a pretty low density material --it floats on water. Synthetic reed materials are significantly denser than cane. My Forestone reeds sink in water.
Because of the high density of synthetic reed materials, they have to be stiffer to get the ratio of stiffness to density high enough to produce the required natural frequency. Fiberglass can have about the same stiffness as wood and be lot heavier --so special care has to be applied to make a fiberglass structure enough stiffer than wood to have the same vibration character.
Changing the shape of the reed (thick at the root, highly tapered and hard to play...) can raise its natural frequency of vibration, and that's what cane reed makers to to provide a range of "hardness" 1-1/2, ... 3-1/2, ...
A good synthetic reed for high notes will be made of something that has a high stiffness/density ratio.
Even with cane reeds, a stiff one is needed to play in the altissimo.
*a single reed might also vibrate in a twisting mode, but that's a real mess. Even if that's the way they work in the high notes, the requirement for a high ratio of stiffness to density would still apply.
Bob Phillips
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: William
Date: 2011-06-09 16:08
With my Forestone F4.5's (vintage Chicago Kaspar #14 mpc) I have no problem with the higher register notes as long as I keep spit from accumulating on the back of he reed. Just before attempting your C7's, try sucking in to remove any excess moisture. However, even doing "that", I've had little success playing Legeres an prefer the Forestones mostly for their clarity of sound in the upper register--and their remarkable consistancy. I also play F's on my alto & tenor sax mpcies and never have the old "cane" problem of reeds drying out.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: sfalexi
Date: 2011-06-09 16:15
Interesting food for thought. Thanks Bob.
US Army Japan Band
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2011-06-09 16:49
Bob Phillips wrote:
> The instrument air column vibrations (mostly) determine the
> pitch.
What else determines the pitch other than the vibrations of the air column?
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: ThatPerfectReed
Date: 2011-06-09 17:30
Bob--really great explanation on your part concerning the science.
I stand more educated than before! : - )
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Jack Kissinger
Date: 2011-06-10 22:33
Could you give us a citation on your source for that information, Bob. I've never seen that before and I'd like to read more.
Best regards,
jnk
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2011-06-11 03:12
Bob Phillips wrote:
> Cane is a pretty low density material --it floats on water.
> Synthetic reed materials are significantly denser than cane.
> My Forestone reeds sink in water.
But Legeres float and are synthetic ...
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Claire Annette
Date: 2011-06-11 14:18
Bob, I like the diving board analogy and have used it with my students.
I just this week sent my 3.5 Legere Signature back in exchange for a 3.75 because I felt the 3.5 wasn't quite giving me the response I was looking for in the altissimo. I'm eager to see if the 3.75 will make a significant difference.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Bob Phillips
Date: 2011-06-11 16:30
@Jack,
I'm a mechanical engineer with a bit of grad work in acoustics and have done a fair amount of work in vibration problems, and that is what my somewhat intuitive explanation of reed behavior is based on.
Imagine that the pressure wave from the air column is squeezing up into the mouthpiece, and getting further compressed against the moving reed. If the reed is too slow to respond to the air column, it won't be able to resonate with it and transfer energy to the air and keep things vibrating.
If the length of the air column (and therefore its resonant frequency is suddenly changed) the reed has to respond to it to keep things going. We've all had the experience of making a leap (particularly downward) when the reed let us down, and the clarinet either failed to speak, or squeaked.
The poor reed has to change its vibration frequency quickly as the player changes the air column pitch. It can do that only of it is "faster" than the air column. The speed with which this is accomplished also depends upon the reed's damping. I've done some work on the effect of damping in transient resonance conditions, but do not have a clear understanding of how it all works.
Adding damping to the consideration involves at least two sources of energy dissipation. One is the "squirting" of air out of the disappearing gap between the reed and the rails and tip of the mouthpiece --complicated by moisture there. The other is the structural damping of the reed material. Maybe the plastic in a synthetic reed has more damping than cane, and maybe a waterlogged cane reed is both more dense (because of the weight of the entrained water) and more dissipative.
@Mark
(You know this.)
The pitch of the fundamental frequency played on the clarinet depends on both the air columnS frequency and the reed vibration frequency. If that were not the case, then the player could not "lip" the pitch into tune.
We have to remember that the "air column" is not all in the bore of the clarinet. At least two more cells of vibrating air contribute (and complicate) the situation. Pressure on the back side of the reed from the player's mouth affects the reed vibration in two ways: by algebraic summation with the pressure on the other side of the reed, and by forming a "jug." By "jug," I mean a Helmholtz resonator like a long-necked bottle, which when blown like a flute will produce its own musical tone. The player alters this mouth organ to help make it all work.
Another air sac that participates in the tone generation is made up of lungs and throat.
I have yet to see a really comprehensive mathematical model of the lung, throat (and bronchial network), tongue, reed, mouthpiece, clarinet/sax/oboe/flute/bassoon, ... There are pieces around, but the definitive biomechanical doctoral dissertation has yet to be published.
SIGH
Bob Phillips
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: camyllacarvalho
Date: 2011-06-12 01:51
but embochures are different.. and that's why mouthpieces works better for someone and not work for others..
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
The Clarinet Pages
|
 |
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
