 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Red Chair
Date: 2011-05-06 13:09
This is possibly the worst interview I've read this year. It's neither informative or interesting. By reading it I wasted 2 minutes of my life that I'm never getting back.
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Author: Sylvain
Date: 2011-05-06 13:59
Thank you Red Chair, your critique is equally informative.
--
Sylvain Bouix <sbouix@gmail.com>
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2011-05-06 14:08
Red Chair wrote:
> By reading it I wasted 2
> minutes of my life that I'm never getting back.
Slow reader ...
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Author: William
Date: 2011-05-06 14:42
The one thing I agree with, in the interview, is that the amount of vibration allowed in the heel of the reed affects the total sound output of the reed at the tip. This is what John Winslow used to talk about most with his ligatures and actually proved it using an oscilloscope to measure the overtones present with his products. The surface configuration as well as the material used does make a difference in the sound because of the different overtones produced by the reeds total pattern of vibration--heel to tip.
What I disagree with is that a ligature has any influence on the clarinets intonation. That is more a result of the mouthpiece, barrel, clarinet bore and the performers ear. All the ligature does is keep the reed in place on the mouthpiece--and allows it to vibrate with a variety of efficiency producing different overtone spectums, thus, different tone qualities. You will play just as well "in tune" with a stock metal lig as with the fanciest custom ligature.
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2011-05-06 15:03
TianL wrote:
> i personally found this to be pretty informative..
If read critically I wouldn't go that far ... there are a lot of anecdotes in there, which may or may not have any real validity.
OK as an opinion piece.
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Author: lhoffman
Date: 2011-05-06 15:25
I found this interview very informative. I always wondered if Rovner believed what they claimed about their products, or they were just having a laugh.
I also learned that it is impossible to play a tenor sax in tune with anything but a Rovner ligature.
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Author: Red Chair
Date: 2011-05-06 17:33
Slow server speed Mark...
I'm here to voice opinion, highlight the fraudulent craftsmanship of some in the iindustry, learn from others (Tony Pay etc) who actually know what they are talking about and share some of knowledge of clarinet artistry and manufacture. I'm not here to read mindless babel that is just an advertorial for Rovner products.
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Author: Tobin
Date: 2011-05-06 17:41
I see that "explore civil discourse" isn't on your list of things-to-do.
If the article had been no more informative about a line of products that you do believe in, would the response have been the same?
Clearly you're here to talk. How much do you have to contribute when you won't even share your real name?
James
Gnothi Seauton
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Author: Red Chair
Date: 2011-05-06 21:20
I actually use a rovner so that part of your argument is flawed the article just gives nothing of interest.
I guess time will tell what I have to offer. There is no stipulation of providing the details you ask for on this forum.
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Author: brycon
Date: 2011-05-07 00:17
Never had a ligature make me play in tune. I need to go buy some Rovners for my students!
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Author: Ed Palanker
Date: 2011-05-07 03:55
I'm a good friend of Phil Rovner. As a matter of fact I was the very first professional symphony player to use his ligature. He came to me way back when to ask my opinion of his "new" ligature and it was love at first play, I've been using one of his ever since on clarinet and bass clarinet. In the early days I even helped him out by sending a copy to many of my colleagues in other orchestra to get the new style known. Some were very receptive, others rejected it back in then, but the rest is history. He really believes that a ligature helps with intonation, we've had disagreements with that topic. The reason he believes it, and he's very sincere, is because he claims the more control you have over your tone the better you're likely to be able to play in tune. What ever red chair thinks about what Rovner said, I will attest that he believes every single word of it. His place is only about 15 minutes from where I live so every time he changes something he asks me to try it and give him my opinion. I have draws full of his experimental ligatures because he's alway trying to upgrade and improve something. Sometimes he gets so excited about something new he's doing and then I come in and play it for him, no I don't get paid, he's a friend, and he says, back to the drawing board. He doesn't play classical clarinet but he did study with Iggy Gennusa a million years ago. He believes what he says and he believes what he's doing. Believe me, he can easily retire but he loves what he does. You can't believe how many ligatures he sells worldwide.
ESP http://eddiesclarinet.com
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Author: ned
Date: 2011-05-07 09:55
Red Chair writes: "By reading it I wasted 2 minutes of my life that I'm never getting back."
It can't be quite that bad, surely? and...................
''I'm not here to read mindless babel that is just an advertorial for Rovner products.''
I'd tend to agree, the ''article'' didn't really offer anything to the seasoned player (I guess I fit in here) that he/she would not have known already. It may have given food for thought to the novice possibly.
Really though, Mr Rovner was given a chance to advertise his products and anyone of us would surely have done the same were we in a similar line of business. It doesn't mean you have to accept his word without question and clearly some of us here have not.
Personally I have used a variety of ligatures in my time (alas not a Rovner) but I have used both metal and leather and cannot detect any discernible difference to my sound. I therefore figure that I do not need to shell out many $$ for something which will make little or no difference to me.
...................................................................................................................
William writes: ''This is what John Winslow used to talk about most with his ligatures and actually proved it using an oscilloscope to measure the overtones present with his products.''
This may well be true, but if takes an oscilloscope to detect differences which the ear cannot, how important is this information? and..............
''What I disagree with is that a ligature has any influence on the clarinets intonation.''
Perhaps an oscilloscope may well be of value in backing up your claim.........or a reliable and accurate tuner.
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L Hoffman writes: ''I also learned that it is impossible to play a tenor sax in tune with anything but a Rovner ligature.''
Ahhh.........subtle irony..............and here I am thinking that Americans don't understand it.
...................................................................................................................
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Author: Ed Palanker
Date: 2011-05-07 15:01
The question is, can a Tenor Sax ever bee played in tune? ;-)
OK, so give the Rovner some credit. When he first came out with his original style ligature many clarinet players thought it looked to funny to play and many were not even willing to try it. It is now the most copied style of ligature on the market. NO one made a ligature that looked like his until it became very popular, and once his pattern ran out both large companies and individuals began to make copies of his basic design, many with modifications. Why, because it became so successful. Some of you may not like that in his interview he actually says what he believes, even though you may not agree with him, I told you that I don't either about the intonation thing, but he is sincere and very, very successful. You can't believe how many of these ligatures he sells world wide. ESP
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2011-05-07 20:52
My opinions (worth less than the cost of an old brown-box Rico #1-1/2 reed):
1) Rovner ligatures work, at worst, OK on nearly every mouthpiece on every size of clarinet and sax that exists (and I play nearly all of them). Sometimes they play very well indeed, even if they are not necessarily the absolute best-playing ligature for a particular mouthpiece on a particular instrument.
2) Rovner's product are all very well made, of good materials, with solid designs and nice workmanship.
3) The Rovner ligature is the single most versatile, adaptable and unbreakable ligature design in the universe -- period.
4) No ligature is a panacea. A ligature will not correct intonation problems (nor cause them). If you're a good player with a decent horn and a decent mouthpiece, you will play well and sound good regardless of what ligature you use.
5) Tenor saxes can be played in tune. If your tenor is not in tune, either your horn is not right or the nut behind the wheel needs some work.
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Author: William
Date: 2011-05-08 00:05
Ned, wrote, "This may well be true, but if takes an oscilloscope to detect differences which the ear cannot, how important is this information?"
The fact is that you can hear a "difference" in the tone quality when using a Winslow ligature and John simply used the occilloscope to prove (or show) why. Different ligs do produce different tone qualities, but none as unique as John Wislows original models. I use them on all of my saxophones and bass clarinet.
And EP, saxophones can be played in tune. It all depends on the quality of the instrument and the quality of the ear "driving" it. One of our local sax pro's has a saying that I like: "It is better to play in tune that *be* in tune. Just had to put in my 2 cents worth............lol.
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2011-05-08 03:35
>> Really though, Mr Rovner was given a chance to advertise his products and anyone of us would surely have done the same were we in a similar line of business. <<
Absolutely not! But I guess maybe that's why some of us are not in a similar line of business...
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Author: Ed Palanker
Date: 2011-05-08 04:32
William, for Pete sake, I was kidding about the sax being played in tune, that's why there was a ;-) after my statement. I play with professionals, and they play in tune.
As far as telling the difference between ligatures, yes, some of them do make a difference and in many cases I can tell when I play them. That's the reason Rovner has me try any new design or material so he and I can see and hear if there is any difference, and there usually is. In most cases it may be subtle but in many cases the feeling and response is substantial. I've been using a bass clarinet ligature he made several years ago from a white leather material he never put in production because some others he has try them for him complained that the leather stretched over time. It gives me a warmer tone than anything he's made since so I keep using it and it doesn't stretch for me. HE and I both can hear the difference in anything else he's made for me to try since. I don't like it on regular clarinet though, it's to dull on clarinet.
When I taught at the conservatory I'd often have a student try several different ligatures in a blind test and often we were able to tell a difference. Many of my former students used different ligatures other than the Rovners. Different players with different mouthpieces and reed combinations feel and sound different with different ligatures. In some case it makes little or no difference, in many cases it makes enough of a difference to care. ESP
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Author: ned
Date: 2011-05-08 05:00
clarnibass writes: ''Absolutely not! But I guess maybe that's why some of us are not in a similar line of business..''
Absolutely yes!............but as you say 'that's why some of us are not....etc.......'
Any business or marketing person would jump at the chance to spruik their wares to a captive audience. I was in the marketing of specialist books for decades................you investigate EVERY advertising channel.
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2011-05-08 05:59
>> Absolutely yes!
>> Any business or marketing person would jump at the chance to spruik
>> their wares to a captive audience. I was in the marketing of specialist
>> books for decades................you investigate EVERY advertising channel.
I disagree. Sorry but this is an issue I feel strongly about. Maybe for most people what you say is true. Maybe even almost all people, I don't know. But to give an example...
Almost everything I do is playing and repairing woodwinds. Other than that, I sell a few products. It's really a very small part of what I do. I sell these products because I haven't found similar products locally that I think are as good.
When I see a potential customer for one of the things I sell (e.g. someone I play with, or someone who came for repairs, almost any woodwind player can be one), I will first see if they need it or if it might help them. Usually only if I think they really should consider buying it I'd even tell them that I sell it. Even if it somehow comes up that I sell something, I'd recommend they shouldn't buy it unless I really think they should.
When I am selling I will also be honest about the real benefits of the product. I will not misrepresent possible benefits as fact. I will be objective about something I sell. For example, I found that a certain ligature rarely improves intonation. It might, but possibly (not definitely), for example, because a certain other ligature holds the reed to create a different tip opening, which makes it more difficult to play for a particular player. This is an anecdote and doesn't give real evidence. So if I found a ligature doesn't consistently improve intonation, even if the maker claims it does, I will not use that as a selling tactic.
Is this the best way for business and profit? Probably not. Could I do it differently and feel good doing it? Probably not.
I don't think anyone praising their products with exaggerated advantages is necessarily misleading. Some definitely do. But I think some people actually believe it. They just don't know they are wrong and misleading. However I'd definitely prefer buying from someone who is honest and doesn't exaggerate anything for advertisement. Though I think most people prefer buying from someone who does (or at least get sucked into this false optimal world).
I started reading the article and ended up reading an advertisement. Maybe it was my mistake for not expecting an advertisement. This intereview/advertisement might make more people interested in Rovner ligatures, but it actually slightly discouraged me from them, for reasons that got nothing to do with their quality.
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Author: kdk
Date: 2011-05-08 12:22
ned wrote:
>
> Absolutely yes!............but as you say 'that's why some of
> us are not....etc.......'
>
> Any business or marketing person would jump at the chance to
> spruik their wares to a captive audience.
Captive audience?? I'm not really clear that Mr. Rovner knew for sure what use would be made of the answers. Curiousclarinetist originally posted the interview on his/her blog space (probably with Rovner's knowledge). Anyone reading it there would have gone to the blog deliberately. Even if Rovner knew that curiousclarinetist would then post a link to the blog here on the BB, we still (a) choose to log into the board and (b) decide for ourselves which threads to read and, in this case, whether or not to follow the link once we've read the opening post.
BTW, was "spruik" a typo or is it a jargon word I've never seen before?
Karl
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Author: kdk
Date: 2011-05-08 12:33
Rovner ligatures are very well known to most of the posters here. The advertising value of a short interview like this is a little lost on me. It isn't as though we've never discussed these ligatures before on the BB. They're cited on the Equipment (Mouthpieces, Ligatures and Barrels) page here. The interview may have made Rovner more of a person and less a disembodied name on a product package, but I doubt if it made very many here more familiar with the product itself.
Karl
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Author: curiousclarinetist
Date: 2011-05-08 17:23
The questions asked in my interview were things that I had had wondered about. I wanted to get the input of one of the biggest names in the clarinet industry when it comes to ligatures, so Rovner was an obvious candidate. I didn't intend for this to become a post where the morality of advertisement or a persons motives were to come into play.
I contacted him for the interview, not the other way around. They are his honest answers about what he believes and has found in his personal experience with ligatures. I wanted this to become a discussion of what people really do think ligatures lend to the sound, and some people are doing that. I just don't think we need to read so deeply into the "hidden agenda" of his answers or this article.
Curious Clarinetist
http://curiousclarinetist.blogspot.com/
http://www.facebook.com/pages/Curious-Clarinetist/155848744465821
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Author: kdk
Date: 2011-05-08 18:38
Which was more or less my point in my last post. I doubt that Mr. Rovner meant his answers as advertising because his name and product recognition here are already very high. He'd have had little or nothing to gain by deliberately trying to use the interview as "shameless self-promotion." Whatever he contributed or didn't contribute to anyone's understanding of ligatures, thanks for asking him the questions and for posting the link to his answers.
Karl
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Author: Ed Palanker
Date: 2011-05-09 01:48
I give up. If some of you can't believe that Phil Rovner said what he actually believes then nothing is going to change your mind. He sells so many ligatures around the world he doesn't need to have an interview to publicize his product. How many more hundreds of thousands do you think he thinks he will sell by giving this interview? Give it up. ESP
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Author: Barry Vincent
Date: 2011-05-09 06:03
I use the Rovner for one reason only, it is very easy (convenient) to use. I love the single adusting screw on it.
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Author: TianL
Date: 2011-05-09 06:26
Hey Ed, remember you talked about a ligature you tried that you said you liked a lot?? is it finally in production yet? I've been waiting for it to come out
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Author: Ed Palanker
Date: 2011-05-09 15:39
TianL, I'm sorry to report that it is not yet in production. He told me he's been so busy filling orders he had to put it on the back burner for a while. I'll ask him when he thinks it will be available. It's pretty much like his Star Series with a Turbo Charger kit on it. I guess there's something different but that what it looks like.
Buster, you make a good point about tone quality sometimes being either confused or effected by pitch. There have been clarinet players that tended to play just about the pitch to "make their tone brighter or carry" and it could be that some, in an attempt to get a darker tone, end up playing a bit flat. I myself have never equated pitch with a ligature or tone quality with pitch. In other words, when I taught conservatory students and we experimented with ligatures I never suggested that one played in or out of tune better than another. With that said though, it is possible that a ligature that didn't support the altissimo register properly to cause that register to play flat and even a ligature can tend to play flat in the lowest register because it makes the reed to blow to free but I really that that's rare in most cases. For sure, a ligature can't make one note play better in tune than it did before. It's mostly about feel, response, articulation and tone. ESP
ESP eddiesclarinet.com
Post Edited (2011-05-09 16:16)
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Author: Ed
Date: 2011-05-09 16:42
It was good to be able to get some insight into how Rovner got started and on his concepts in designing equipment. Thanks for sharing.
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Author: Barry Vincent
Date: 2011-05-09 22:36
EEBaum, I'm contented with one screw but I have seen an old all metal screwless ligrature that was ingenious in its construction. You just slipped it on and twisted it till it was firm. I think it was for an Alto Sax from the 1920/30s.
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Author: Barry Vincent
Date: 2011-05-10 12:41
EEBaum , you'll have to send me a picture of that thing. It certainly sounds like it is very convenient. Exactly the opposite of the inconvenience of one meter of twine for the German Clarinet ligature.
Skyfacer
Post Edited (2011-05-10 12:43)
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Author: Barry Vincent
Date: 2011-05-10 21:59
EEBaum , got the e-mail with the images of that ligature. Thanks for that.
Oh yes, now that is the very last word in ligature convenience !
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