 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2011-05-04 14:09
Here's a very amusing post from a bassoonist on the double reed list:
In graduate school I took a course on playing the Bach cello suites. Although it was meant for cellists, there was no requirement that participants had to be cellists (I was the first non-cellist to ever sign up for the class). The teacher was somewhat upset that a NON-cellist would dare to play the Bach cello suites. After a few sessions, he wasn't quite as opposed to hearing them on bassoon. Then one week I decided to do the assigned movements on bass clarinet. Of course, he didn't like that idea at first either. Then one day I had to lug my bari sax to class since I had a rehearsal on it in the same room during the next class. He was afraid that I was going to play it that day. But I got even - I played it during the next class session. After I broke the 'barrier', more non-cellists started signing up for the class, and the teacher got to teach it every semester rather than every 2 or 3 semesters.
The music is too good to leave it to the cellists, who, anyway, have no compunctions about stealing the Schumann Fantasy Pieces.
Ken Shaw
Post Edited (2011-05-04 19:44)
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Author: davyd
Date: 2011-05-04 14:31
An entire course on just 6 pieces? Key components of the repertoire, but still.
I've heard excerpts from the Bach cello suites on lute, guitar and electric bass. Why not winds? But I'm curious as to how wind players handle the multi-note chords. Pick 1 note? Or play all of them as arpeggios? Or does it depend on the context?
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Author: David Niethamer
Date: 2011-05-04 14:35
One of the nicest performances of a Bach cello suite I ever heard was played on the baritone saxophone, by a member of the Rascher Quartet. This was at least 30 years ago - stunning performance.
Since Bach was always "borrowing" the music of others, I find it hard to imagine that he'd mind.
Cellists borrow the Fantasiestucke when the have a much better piece by Schumann, Five Pieces in Folk Style. why they don't play this piece more often is beyond me.
David
niethamer@aol.com
http://members.aol.com/dbnclar1/index.html
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2011-05-04 14:51
As much as I love Bach's music, I can't honestly find anything at all in this performance that does anything for me: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iMn0bLJc2Gc&feature=related
Then again, 'classical' sax playing does absolutely nothing for me at all. A little while ago I mentioned jack Brymer's sax playing to a die-hard 'classical' sax player (not using the word 'saxophonist' as I don't rate his playing) and he absolutely trashed it.
There's far more warmth, musicality and charm in Jack Brymer's playing that I fail to hear in most 'classical' sax players nowadays that go for such a sterile sound and emotionally barren manner of playing. If you get a chance to hear Jack Brymer playing Eric Coates' 'Saxo Rhapsody', then don't pass on it as his playing fits in perfectly with the style.
I just wish more 'classical' sax players would take influence from beyond that niche and listen to more established popular and Jazz players as that can have far greater impact and influence than none.
As for Bach, I happened upon this recording of his cantata 156 (NOT the Concerto in Dm as the title says) which is one of the most refreshing and influential pieces of playing I've ever heard: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hnQzgpz36UU
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: EEBaum
Date: 2011-05-04 15:03
"As much as I love Bach's music, I can't honestly find anything at all in this performance that does anything for me"
I'd say that's more the fault of the particular performance.
-Alex
www.mostlydifferent.com
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2011-05-04 15:10
Being a bari player myself, I definitely don't want to be tarred with the same brush.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2011-05-04 15:23
Jack Brymer was an amazing sax player -- maybe the best I've ever heard.
I have an LP of Walton's Facade with Cathy Berberian and Robert Tear in which he absolutely stole the show. He got such a smoochy sound and had so much presence that you couldn't listen to anyone else while he was playing. Thea King played clarinet and was left in the dust.
As for the YouTube bari sax -- well, to paraphrase Dr. Johnson, this performance is like a dog's walking on his hind legs. It is not done well; but you are surprised to find it done at all.
Ken Shaw
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Author: Bob Phillips
Date: 2011-05-04 15:39
wrt double stops in the Cello Suites.
Pick a note and play it, ignoring the others.
Play them as grace notes leading to a note from the alternatives, probably the highest.
It works just fine.
Bob Phillips
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2011-05-04 15:41
You can hear from Jack Brymer's playing that he's definitely done time playing in dance bands. I personally think all sax players should at least do some dance band playing just to draw from different experiences - you can't be an odd-one-out in a 5-piece sax section and stick firmly to your ground as it won't be a section anymore. You either have to fit in and do what the section does or get out.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Fishamble
Date: 2011-05-04 20:37
There's currently nothing I'd rather play on bass clarinet than the cello suites! They are so rewarding to learn, and I never seem to tire of them.
I've taken the view, however, that some of them just don't work on the bass - the ones that use a lot of double stopping in particular. For some I've found acceptable (to me) compromises; for example, the 4 chords at the end of the 2nd suite prelude, playing the notes of the chords sequentially, but very expressively.
Chris's bari-sax player amply demonstrates another issue: the need to take unobtrusive breaths. A bit of a disaster in his case, unfortunately. For me, breathing compromises parts of the suites such that I can't be satisfied with the results. A better player would manage, I imagine.
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2011-05-04 20:59
I play the chords "straight" (and choose an appropriate note), and if it's a final chord, I play a (lower) mordent.
If I haven't choked on the long passages with no good place to breathe, that is...
What was very distracting in the Bari video was the keywork clatter. Boy am I happy to play a comparatively silent clarinet.
--
Ben
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Author: justme
Date: 2011-05-04 23:20
Chris:-,
Check this out and listen to the entire performace and tell me what you think:
(This one is for you, Chris!)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RVOBQBamjDA
Just Me
"A critic is like a eunuch: he knows exactly how it ought to be done."
CLARINET, n.
An instrument of torture operated by a person with cotton in his ears. There are two instruments that are worse than a clarinet -- two clarinets
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Author: salzo
Date: 2011-05-05 00:52
Ken wrote:
"The music is too good to leave it to the cellists"
Man you got that right. I am sure that I practice the music of Bach more than anything else. I only play Eb clarinet a few times a year, and when I do I ALWAYS start with Baermann, and the Bach Suites for Cello.
THe cello suites on the Eb- ooowweeee it sounds good.
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2011-05-05 04:25
>> Being a bari player myself, I definitely don't want to be tarred with the same brush. <<
The only way to help against this type of generalization is not to add to it by generalizing yourself and by not being afraid of it to prevent yourself from doing something i.e. no reasonable person would "tarr you with the same brush".
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2011-05-05 08:13
Chris:-,
Check this out and listen to the entire performace and tell me what you think: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RVOBQBamjDA
Again as far as classical playing goes it doesn't do much for me as it's not a style of playing I like, but Yasuto Tanaka has absolute control over what he's doing and the musicality is very much there - I've watched this same video before when comparing various classical sax players and he's at the top end of the spectrum whereas I place the bloke in the other video at the opposite end. Plus he plays a Yamaha 62 bari which I have absolutely no problem with!
Whenever I've played sax in an orchestral or concert band setting I still use my standard set-up (Lawton metal 7*BB) as I find Selmer S80 or S90 ebonites far too restrictive, but do have to tell myself to reign back from adding grace notes and lip bends as I would do when playing big band music.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: BflatNH
Date: 2011-05-05 11:45
Are the suites better played as-written or transposed? I transposed Sarabande from the 5th and I discovered that it was written for a lowered top string. If I hear a piece that speaks to me, I play it. I like Chopin on the Bb too.
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Author: Fishamble
Date: 2011-05-05 12:35
You need a bass to low C to play them directly from the cello books. And read bass clef.
If you can play to low C, then I wouldn't transpose. The low notes sound fantastic.
I have a transcription for clarinet of some parts of the suites and some violin sonatas written in range for Bb (by Giampieri, I think). Sounds great too.
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Author: Lelia Loban ★2017
Date: 2011-05-05 13:18
As an amateur, I don't have to give half a squeak what Dr. Tarr and Prof. Feather say about playing music on the "wrong" instruments. (Full disclosure: in real life, if any, I'm a book and film critic. Nonetheless....) Bach for solo cello is my favorite music to practice on E-flat alto and E-flat contra-alto clarinet. If great composers had written great solo music for those instruments, I'd be happy to practice the "right" stuff, but under the circumstances, I'll happily steal from the cellists' repertory before I'll meekly retreat to the Rubank exercises and such.
Lelia
http://www.scoreexchange.com/profiles/Lelia_Loban
To hear the audio, click on the "Scorch Plug-In" box above the score.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2011-05-05 14:13
Leila, I'm not against playing music on the wrong instrument and never said anywhere that I was (and I've played several pieces on the 'wrong' instruments myself much to some others annoyance so it seems, but I couldn't give a rat's **** what they think - I've even been moaned at for playing an A clarinet when the part is written for Bb FFS!) - it's just that some players really don't do it any justice when they do (take the first YouTube video I highlighted as an example) which then gives it a poor reputation.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
Post Edited (2011-05-05 14:14)
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Author: Joarkh
Date: 2011-05-05 19:18
If you have the edition for viola, transposing to B flat clarinet becomes very easy: Just read the alto clef as if it was a bass clef. Watch out for the correct key signature, though.
Joar
Clarinet and saxophone teacher, clarinet freelancer
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Author: johng ★2017
Date: 2011-05-05 21:47
Here is a transcription of Bach's Chaconne from Partita #2 played by Gabriele Galvani. Although my clarinet transcription of this magnificent violin piece might create some debate, I think Galvani does an exceptional performance.
http://youtu.be/L0_B1GydZpo
In the slower sections I chose to use some or all of the violin double stops or grace notes since they are an intregal part of the harmony either present or implied. There were also some parts of the music that were too intensely violin-istic to transfer to the clarinet. Playing this piece is quite a journey and Galvani does a fine job.
John Gibson
John Gibson, Founder of JB Linear Music, www.music4woodwinds.com
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Author: Chris_C ★2017
Date: 2011-05-05 22:23
If Bach had realised how good some of his stuff sounds when played by sax quartets or Mozart how good the string quintets sound for clarinet choir they would have wriiten more for those groups!
Back up the thread a little... the Coates Saxo-Rhapsody is a really nice piece. I agree that the Jack Brymer recording has exactly the right feel to it (as well as being about the only one available!). Our band played it a couple of years ago and we found it really rewarding.
Chris
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Author: salzo
Date: 2011-05-06 00:05
John- really nice transcription. I like to play it reading the violin part, but would love to have a copy of your transcription.
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Author: ned
Date: 2011-05-06 02:29
Chris P writes:''Again as far as classical playing goes it doesn't do much for me as it's not a style of playing I like, but Yasuto Tanaka has absolute control over what he's doing and the musicality is very much there ''
I notice that he clearly uses cello-like vibrato. This is highly appropriate in my view, irrespective of whether it be a cello piece or not.
As a jazz player (and non-classical player) I still prefer classical music played with vibrato, and, whilst I'm a clarinet player of course, I'd much rather listen to classical pieces written for strings instead of pieces for any brass or woodwind instrument.
Vibrato is not the be-all criterion naturally enough, but it certainly assists my liking for any genre of music. As I have mentioned in posts before - if strings use vibrato regularly, I can see no good reason for brass and woodwinds not to do likewise.
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Ken Shaw writes: ''As for the YouTube bari sax -- well, to paraphrase Dr. Johnson, this performance is like a dog's walking on his hind legs. It is not done well; but you are surprised to find it done at all.''
I assume you are referring solely to the first baritone video Ken? The Tanaka video was excellent!
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The chap in the first video would probably have benefitted by having some accompaniment.........other than the rhythm accompaniment which he supplied himself.
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Author: ned
Date: 2011-05-07 00:14
''I thought Yasuto Tanaka played amazingly well on baritone. His performance of The Swan on tenor is gorgeous''
I agree entirely Ken, and I wonder if you think that if he had used no vibrato at all, would the performances have been bland?
It's certainly my view.
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Author: rsholmes
Date: 2011-05-07 00:27
I have read (and cannot cite the source, sorry) that string players generally used little to no vibrato up until the early 20th century.
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Author: BflatNH
Date: 2011-05-09 01:21
I really liked "Casals and the Art of Interpretation" by Blum. Perhaps it was Casals who gave license to vibrato.
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