 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: donhitchy
Date: 2011-01-09 02:21
Hello everybody, I've got a Penzel Mueller 'C' clarinet serial number 9031-C and I'm looking for a mouthpiece that is specific for this clarinet. I've been told that the "exit bore" inside dia. should be 12mm dia. This is the inside dia. of the mpc tendon that goes into the barrel. "Modern mouthpieces have too large of a bore dia. and they have too much "air volume" for this old PM 'C' clarinet", as the owner that I bought it from told me. It came with a Eb clarinet mpc and it plays mostly in tune but it's not the correct mpc for this instrument. Does any one have a Penzel Mueller 'C' clarinet mpc for sale??? Or an older (1930-40's) clarinet mpc that has a inside bottom dia. of 12mm?? Also the owner that I bought it from said that the bell may not be a "C" clarinet bell. The bell I have is stamped Penzel Mueller. Anybody have a PM bell that really goes to a "C' Penzel Mueller clarinet?? Please contact me. Thanks for all your time and wonderful help. Don
Post Edited (2011-01-13 02:39)
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2011-01-09 03:12
Can't answer your specific questions, but I have played my own "C" clarinet in performance with a standard Bb clarinet mouthpiece, as I believe many other players have done. Have you tried playing yours with a Bb mouthpiece yet?
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Author: William
Date: 2011-01-09 15:52
Walter Grabner makes a mouthpiece specifically for the "C" clarinet. However, like most clarinetist's, I just use my Bb mouthpiece on my C instrument with good intonation results...... Remember, it is better to play in tune than "be" in tune. Good intonation is acheived via your ears, not so much your equipement.
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Author: Caroline Smale
Date: 2011-01-09 17:02
12mm seems inordinately small, that's even smaller than most Ebs.
What is the actual diameter of bore in the barrel and top end of top joint?
Your mouthpiece exit should be very close to those dimensions.
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Author: skygardener
Date: 2011-01-09 23:12
I also think that 12mm is incredibly small. Is it possible that the person measured it improperly? What is the diameter of the top of the top joint (much easier to measure that the barrel)?
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Author: LarryBocaner ★2017
Date: 2011-01-10 02:33
The bore of my Buffet R13 C clarinet is actually larger than the bore of my R13 Bb clarinet -- by 2/1000's of an inch. I've had mixed results, intonation-wise, with different Bb clarinet mouthpieces over the years. currently using a Ralph Morgan mouthpiece that (I think) sounds well and tunes well on all of my clarinets (well, not the bass clarinet). If you have the wrong bell it should be pretty obvious -- the C clarinet bell is quite a bit smaller.
My advice, try a number of standard Bb clarinet mouthpieces until you find one that works well on your instrument -- never mind the measurements!
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Author: donhitchy
Date: 2011-01-13 02:26
Thanks for your reply. Yes I have played the PM 'C' clarinet with my Bb mpc's. Mostly I'm in tune and I sound good. I am trying to get the entire clarinet to it's original stature. Thanks again. Don
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Author: donhitchy
Date: 2011-01-13 02:32
Hello Norman, the inside "top" bore of the barrel is 14.71 mm and the "bottom" inside measurement of the bore is 14.61 mm. The length of the barrel is 50.8 mm. These measurements are very very close to the inside dia. of most of my Bb mpc's. Thanks for your reply to my note. Don
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Author: donhitchy
Date: 2011-01-13 02:38
Hello Larry, After checking out my Bb clarinet's bell my 'C' PM's clarinet bell is much smaller then the Bb. I never measured it before. I have just got it from the owner. The 'C' bell is 9mm tall. Thank you for your help and answer. Have a nice day. Don
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2011-01-13 05:55
I have a mouthpiece made specifically for a C clarinet. It plays much worse than my regular Bb mouthpiece on any soprano clarinet, including the C clarinet it was made especially for.
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Author: Iceland clarinet
Date: 2011-01-13 07:02
Once again: Walter Grabner does not make a specific C clarinet mouthpieces. He selects either one of his AW-Personal or K2e for the Noblet C clarinet.
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Author: skygardener
Date: 2011-01-13 09:33
Well, step one is to find out what fits into the tenon socket.
Seems that Don mentioned that an Eb piece fits into the socket, but the bore does not match and the intonation is poor.
Do I have that right?
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Author: donhitchy
Date: 2011-01-13 13:08
Hello Clarnibass,
Thank you for getting back to me. What is this C mpc?? It plays bad on your C horn too?? What mpc do you use for your C clarinet?? What is this C mpc?? Any information about it? Can you take some clear pictures and send them to me?? I am interested in your mpc.
Thanks much and have a nice day. Don
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Author: donhitchy
Date: 2011-01-13 13:09
Hello Skygardener,
Thank you for getting back to me. I do have "blue painters tape" wrapped around the tendon so it fits into my C clarinet barrel. The upper clarion notes (high G through C) are somewhat sharp but it plays mostly in tune.
Thanks again and have a nice day. Don
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Author: skygardener
Date: 2011-01-14 06:49
So it really was NOT made for an Eb mouthpiece.
Does a regular Bb mouthpiece fit in the socket?
As for the bore, I have a feeling that the 12mm measurement is a mistake. I have studied many new and old clarinets, but I have never seen a bore that is so small.
What is the bore diameter at the top of the upper joint??
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Author: donhitchy
Date: 2011-01-14 14:22
Hello skygardener,
The PM clarinet should have a C clarinet mpc for it. The inside top diameter of the barrel is 14.71mm and the inside bottom of the barrel is 14.61 mm. I contacted the former owner and he said that the "air volume" of the mouthpiece is what is the most important part of the equation. Since the bore of the smaller C clarinet is smaller then a Bb clarinet, the C clarinet needs less air. The Bb mpc's have too much "volume" of air coming out of the mpc for the smaller C clarinet. Thus the need for a smaller mpc for this PM 'C' horn.
Thanks for your info. Don
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Author: skygardener
Date: 2011-01-14 15:14
The inside top diameter of the barrel is 14.71mm and the inside bottom of the barrel is 14.61 mm
Okay, these numbers are more realistic.
As for the use of a mouthpiece for "C" or Bb, the question does not only lie with the bore diameter.
The length is also very important for pitch.
Honestly, this bore is smaller than normal, but not by much. It may be possible to find an older or current mouthpiece for Bb that has a small bore. Don't get caught up in the labels "Bb" or "C"- they are only letters. If a mouthpiece fits and has a similar plays in tune then it is good.
By the same token, many people use barrels for their "A" clarinet that were "intended" for Bb and visa virsa.
However, I am sure there are some Bb mouthpieces that have a smaller bore.
Wasn't there a mouthpiece for A a few months ago in a thread that was smaller than that for Bb?
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Author: Kalakos
Date: 2011-01-14 19:40
I have been playing C clarinets for almost all my life, since around 1962. I play C Albert system for Greek music. I mainly use regular Bb mpc's, but for some of the antiques I've used over the years which needed different size tenons or which were too long, I would cut the mpc down a bit (experimenting) until it worked for me. I have found, over the years, a few smaller C mpc's (larger than Eb but smaller than Bb, and they would fit some of these "unique" sized C clarinet barrels perfectly. Often, however, the openings were not what I needed, so my "homemade" mpc's worked better. My main clarinets are Buffet Albert system C clarinets, and on all of them I use regular Bb mpc's (Robert Borbeck #16, Clark Fobes "Jazz," and a couple of custom mpc's made for me by a guy in Australia.
Good luck, and just experiment until you find what you need. If you have a nice mpc that works but is too long, have a tech try shortening it from the tenon end and see what happens.
John
Kalakos
Kalakos Music
http://www.TAdelphia.com
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Author: donhitchy
Date: 2011-01-14 22:51
Hello John, Thanks for the info. I have discovered that many of the Bb mpc tendons are to long for the smaller C barrel. After I look into finding a regular C mpc, hopefully I will someday, I may pick a Bb mpc and get it shortened to fit the C barrel. I do like that idea more then lengthening the inside of the C barrel. Thanks again and have a nice day. Don
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2011-01-16 05:51
Donhitchy, my point is that a mouthpiece specifically made for a C clarinet won't nevessarily be any better than a regular Bb clarinet mouthpiece. Especially if, like my C clarinet mouthpiece, it was made specifically for a clarinet that can also use a Bb clarinet mouthpiece, so the tenons are the same.
Re your question, my C clarinet is a Forte which has some intonation issues. My C mouthpiece is a Gennusa that was made specifically for this model clarinet. It exaggerates the intonation problems. The regular Bb mouthpiece makes them a little more tolerable.
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Author: susieray
Date: 2011-01-16 16:43
Don, it would be close to impossible to find a Penzel Mueller C clarinet mouthpiece (if such a thing even exists) and even if you do, and like others have pointed out, it may not necessarily solve your tuning problems.
I tried a zillion different Bb mouthpieces on my C clarinets (a Ridenour and a Buffet R13) and found a couple of older Vandorens that tune well for me. These are the Vandorens with the engraved script logo, and I believe they are from the 1960's. I have both a V360 and a 3V, and they both tune well on the C clarinet (for ME). I also tried some of Clark Fobes' San Francisco mouthpieces in the CF and the CFW models and they tuned quite well on the C clarinet.
C clarinets often have sharp throat notes, even with a great mouthpiece, so you do need to play around with resonance fingerings and sometimes use a little tape in the A tone hole.
Post Edited (2011-01-16 16:48)
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Author: donhitchy
Date: 2011-01-17 01:09
Hello clarnibass, Thank you for your reply. I'll keep on testing different Bb mpc's and (hopefully) get one that plays well and keeps me in tune 90% of the time. Thanks again. Don
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Author: donhitchy
Date: 2011-01-17 01:24
Hello susieray, nice to see you on clarinet bb board. I remember you as a seller of great clarinet stuff on e-bay, if this is the same person. If I remember correctly I was one of your buyers! You are tops! The PM 'C' clarinet that I have is a 1939, or so, vintage and I have been looking at some old 1940-60's Bb mpc's to see if they will work for me and my horn. I could not afford a newer C clarinet and went with an older horn. But since I am not a professional player, I probably can get away with a couple of notes out of tune every now and then. My dog happens to be the best "out of tune indicator" in the world but she is not with me all the time I play, just when I practice at home. Thank you for your input and have a nice day. Don
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