 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: sfalexi
Date: 2010-12-14 22:10
Gotta fix it by Friday. The greenline I have has a sticky thumb ring. It's not the pad or screw, but rather that little strip of leather that connects the thumb ring to the forefinger. VERY annoying and I'm wondering how to fix. I don't have the time to request it be sent to a tech, nor can our band do this right now, but I have to do some outdoors playing on Friday. Any quick fixes? Thanks.
Alexi
US Army Japan Band
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Author: GBK
Date: 2010-12-14 22:17
Try a very small dab of cork grease.
...GBK
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Author: clarinettist1104
Date: 2010-12-14 22:19
I have the same problem on my R13 prestige! I cut a small square out of a 3x5 note card, and put it underneath the backside of the F sharp key, where the cork is that has gotten flattened. To make it stick, fold the edges up on both sides, and attach them on top with a slice of scotch tape. It fixes the problem for me, I'm even using that in an audition coming up. Hope it fixes everything!
-alex
Post Edited (2010-12-14 22:20)
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Author: sfalexi
Date: 2010-12-14 22:36
Thanks. I'll try some cork grease first and if it goes back by Friday, a piece of paper stuck up there. And then in January should be able to send the clarinet out to a tech.
Alexi
US Army Japan Band
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Author: Caroline Smale
Date: 2010-12-14 23:45
If you can manage it then remove the cork and replace with a similar piece but this time glued to the other surface (the thumb ring lever).
At a pinch, if cork is not too thick, then just remove it and have a metal to metal contact, makes a slight click but should work fine.
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Author: JJAlbrecht
Date: 2010-12-15 00:11
Have you tried a little teflon tape?
Jeff
“Everyone discovers their own way of destroying themselves, and some people choose the clarinet.” Kalman Opperman, 1919-2010
"A drummer is a musician's best friend."
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2010-12-15 00:12
Problem with having the cork (or any silencing material) glued to the top side of the thumb ring underlever is that it will wear through at the end - you're best glueing on a piece of hard wearing silencing material to the underside of the LH1 ring key linkage and either graphite or teflon coating it to make it slippery.
Also have the linkage adjusted so the overlever (on LH1) is parallel with the underlever (on the thumb ring) when both are at rest (this involves bending it with suitable pliers), and make sure there isn't a sharp end on the underlever that can dig into the underside of the overlever. Have it filed rund and burnished smooth so it won't dig in or catch.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: pewd
Date: 2010-12-15 04:07
an unfortunately common problem in new buffet's lately ; i've seen dozens with this issue in the last 2,3 years.
the type of cork (a natural/synthetic composite?) they're now using (delaminates? breaks down?) and becomes sticky in a year or less. same issue on the lower joint left side F/C key.
the fix is to replace it with natural cork (or teflon). I've also had success with a synthetic cork that Ferees sells.
goobers. this and the plastic pins on the lower joint levers , plus the sticking tenons on new buffets, is really degrading the quality of this brand. not to mention the constantly breaking adjustable thumb rests.
yamahas and selmers are looking better and better all the time
- Paul Dods
Dallas, Texas
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2010-12-15 05:24
It depends whether it's sticky because of some sticky dirt or maybe there is a bump in the "cork" that the thumb key side of the linkage is trying to climb over. It could also be a problem with the key hinge, maybe stuck on the rod screw. It is not so rare to change the shape of this linkage to work better, so it doesn't dig so much into the material glued there. Same for the lever-to-key linakge of F/C.
I disagree with pewd and consider natural cork a poor choice for this and also the synthetic cork from Ferree's and some other sources. Actually I've seen this happen many times from using natural cork, especially if it's relatively thick (but even if it's thin). I usually use either synthetic felt or rubber cork, always thin, sometimes with very thin teflon glued to it (but more often than not without). Occasionally I use microfiber imitation leather. I've tried many materials (natural and synthetic corks, felts, ultrasuade, other synthetics, leather, etc.) and haven't found anything better. There is also the method some use of drilling and fitting a nylon point, which I also don't prefer.
Post Edited (2010-12-15 09:18)
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2010-12-15 12:08
For me, any strip of material is a waste. This is a "seesaw" mechanism and should be treated with a "button" of teflon.
As a fix I either strip off the offending cork (or other such material) from the point just beyond contact (where it really hangs up) or just take the whole thing off.
There is no need for 'silencing' material at this juncture and it only S-L-O-W-S down your technique.
..............Paul Aviles
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Author: Matt Locker
Date: 2010-12-15 12:26
When I've seen this it was due to a wearing of the cork in such a way that the rocking motion of the key caused it to get stuck against the created ridge. Take off the offending key and lightly sand down the ridge until it's smooth.
MOO,
Matt
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2010-12-15 12:30
Without any silencing material, you'll get a noisy F#-G in the lower register.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2010-12-15 17:12
Dear Chris,
As a CORK pad enthusiast, I would characterize that as "negligable."
................Paul Aviles
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Author: John Peacock
Date: 2010-12-15 19:23
The problem may not be the material at the join: it could just be that the spring on the frontside top rings isn't strong enough. You can always take the rings off (unscrewing the rod that runs through them) and bend the spring out a little bit. The only risk is that you overdo the bending and break it, so best to try only once you have a spare handy...
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Author: pewd
Date: 2010-12-16 04:01
FWIW, Prowinds (Bloomington, Indiana) drilled and fitted nylon points on mine 10 years ago - they still function perfectly, with no issues.
Wish I could find a local tech (Dallas) to do that same quality of detail work.
- Paul Dods
Dallas, Texas
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2010-12-16 09:43
Dear John Peacock,
This points to an entirely separate issue but one on which worth expounding. The spring tensions for keys that remain OFF the body should be only just enough to provide a good movement back into place. In other words, LIGHT tension. You add some feel to these keys by using a slightly heavier key oil.
To over analyze, think of the reverse. Why would you want to exert just to CLOSE a key? This only slows down your technique.
I got this helpful hint from Brannen MANY years ago.
...............Paul Aviles
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2010-12-16 12:17
A bit off topic but anyway...
>> As a CORK pad enthusiast, I would characterize that as "negligable." <<
I guess it's impossible to "argue" about this since it is a preferance of each player. Statistically I would say, by far most players I know prefer less noise form something like synthetic felt, or microfiber imitation leather, as opposed to a linkage with teflon only or nylon point like what the Pauls mentioned. Each to his own. Some players asked me to remove the nylon point. Some asked if possible to make it quieter than what was there.
>> The spring tensions for keys that remain OFF the body should be only just enough to provide a good movement back into place. In other words, LIGHT tension. You add some feel to these keys by using a slightly heavier key oil. <<
I disagree. First, the question is, what is "good". I consider that light enough to feel good to the player but not too light to create bounce or a wiggly key. Slightly heavier oil depends what you compare it with. With a good fit of the hinge, I consider "medium" is good. For example oils with about this viscosity are Ultimax Medium and Alisyn Heavy Duty (I use something else with the same viscosity). The oil just makes it feel smoother (though should be smooth with no resistance without oil), quieter (not that it's noisy without oil) and prevents wear. Of course the feel of the key depends on many things (e.g. weight and shape of the key and arms, fit of the hinge, material, shape, length and diameter of the spring, shape of the spring cradle, etc.).
I occasionally try oils in different viscosities on different keys to see what happens. That is, fit the key (if it's not accurate already), clean the rod and hinge, put new oil and check the feel with nothing else changed. Then repeat with a thicker/thinner oil. The "medium" oil doesn't "add feel" to a key and it shouldn't. If I use an oil thicker than the "medium" it "adds feel" and then it feels worse since the oil is too thick for this accurate fit of the hinge. I only use thicker oil (and sometimes grease) for keys mounted on pivot screws.
IMO.
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2010-12-16 13:25
If I am not mistaken the bottle of oil William Brannen provided was his own mixture that approximated 30 weight.
..............Paul Aviles
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2010-12-16 15:31
When François Kloc holds clinics, he uses axle grease. He says it lasts longer and, in the small amount used on clarinet keys, the extra viscosity makes no detectable difference between it and the lightest (e.g., Nye) clock oil.
Ken Shaw
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2010-12-16 15:37
A few comments:
1) Sometimes the thumb ring itself can get bent a bit sideways and rub against the metal chimney insert, causing binding.
2) The advantage of using a strip of material (e.g. Teflon) rather than just a small button, is the additional bonding area --- reduces the risk of the material debonding completely and falling off.
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Author: John Peacock
Date: 2010-12-16 16:35
I don't entirely agree with Paul Aviles about springs: clearly you don't want to have them so strong that you notice the effort needed to close a mechanism. But up to a certain point, the strength of the spring is negligible relative to the inertia of your moving fingers; you then may as well have the spring set at the high end of this range in order to minimise the chances of something sticking. It's obviously possible in principle for a spring to be too weak, and one should be open to the possibility of doing something about it. Certainly, I have had a case of the thumb ring sticking down in going from F to G, which I cured by making the top ring spring stronger - without feeling that it interfered with the general lightness and response of the mechanism.
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2010-12-16 17:28
Dear David Spiegelthal,
The bonding surface is not the point. The nature of the pivot point creates the need for a slight bit of sliding across the surface typically corked (or some such material). This necessity for sliding causes the inevitable hang up which is completey solved with the "button" of teflon. Of course a strip of teflon is a good second choice.
..............Paul Aviles
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2010-12-16 18:28
Paul -
I tried a Teflon strip, but because the thumb ring has no spring, there was a loud click when I went from F# to G. and the flange connected to the F# ring key hit the one on the thumb key. I've gone back to high quality 1/14" cork, greased occasionally with a tiny amount of cork grease.
Ken Shaw
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2010-12-16 18:32
Dear Paul Aviles,
The amount of bonding surface is always important if one desires the bonded-on material to remain bonded on for an extended length of time. By the geometry of the interface in question, the area of contact is a line across the narrow dimension of the key arm, which slides slightly along the long dimension of said key arm. In this particular location a "button" of material is sufficient to cover the small area of sliding contact. But additional area of coverage (e.g. by a strip rather than a button) does no harm, and does improve the bonding integrity. So I submit to you that a strip of Teflon is a good FIRST choice, and your Teflon button is a good SECOND choice.
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2010-12-17 12:41
Dear Dave Spiegelthal,
Ok, sorry, did not fully explain the set up. With the techs who install the "button," there is a small hole drilled into the surface of the thumb ring armature and it is more like a round head screw (without the slot of course) installed in that spot......... a smashingly good device for that area if I do say so myself. Again, there is a modicum of "clicking" but nothing I usually hear let alone anyone else.
...............Paul Aviles
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2010-12-17 13:32
Dear Paul Aviles,
Now I understand. The small cavity drilled in the key will locate and secure the Teflon button. Thus, an excellent solution. Objection withdrawn, Your Honor!
Post Edited (2010-12-17 14:39)
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Author: BartHx
Date: 2010-12-17 14:36
Just think . . . .
All this fodder for discussion will go away when they invent the clarinet that is self healing and works perfectly for every player and player's technique. I'll get right on that. ;^)
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Author: gsurosey
Date: 2010-12-17 18:25
BartHx wrote:
> Just think . . . .
> All this fodder for discussion will go away when they invent
> the clarinet that is self healing and works perfectly for every
> player and player's technique. I'll get right on that. ;^)
I'll test your first prototype!
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2010-12-19 06:53
>> I've gone back to high quality 1/14" cork <<
Whether 1/14" or the more likely 1/16" (since that's a common measurement of cork thickness, 1/14" isn't), I consider that absurdly thick for this linkage, and especially with a material like natural cork which I consider poor in comparison with some others.
>> The small cavity drilled in the key will locate and secure the Teflon button. <<
A nylon button, not a teflon button. With the exception of the teflon sheets with one side treated for gluing, teflon doesn't really glue, so a teflon button usually wouldn't be secure enough.
IME the nylon button is many times too noisy and also the linakge works better with a good material (not natural cork) glued and properly shaped linkage arms, 99.9% of which aren't.
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Author: stevesklar
Date: 2010-12-20 14:39
The aforementioned problem is that the new models arm on the thumb ring is shorter. Thus it, as mentioned, creates an indent over time in the stock cork on the top key arm, such as shown below:
http://www.clarinetperfection.com/work/1002_R13/cl11.jpg
You can clearly see the indent and the key arm get "stuck" in there.
some newer Buffets use a nylon button, but i can't recall if used on this key ??
One solution I've used is superthin teflon slider on the upper arm and super thin cork on the lower arm but not to the end. I allow the metal to slide on the teflon and then the cork to silence the mechanism upon closing together.
One could also file the end of the arm so that it is a smooth curve instead of an abrupt angle but you can loose some length in total motion.
Of course, there are many solutions to everything, YMMV.
==========
Stephen Sklar
My YouTube Channel of Clarinet Information
Post Edited (2010-12-20 14:43)
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2010-12-20 16:44
If you shorten the underlever on the thumb ring, that will only increase the amount of travel of the thumb ring which may make it sit lower than the thumb tube when it's 'closed', so you'll probably have to bend it up until it sits level with the thumb bush when held down. It won't have any effect on the venting of the G vent (of which you want as good venting as you can get).
On plateau clarinets (including altos, basset horns and basses) you will benefit from the thumb plate underlever being shortened (if it hasn't already been designed that way) so you have good venting for F# when played with LH1 only - most plateau clarinets may use the same underlever for the thumb plate as their ring key counterparts which is too long and won't offer adequate opening of the thumb plate, so shortening it will mean it can be opened up more - you will have to check the progress and also make sure both the thumb pad and the open G vent pad close together.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2010-12-20 19:26
Dear Stephen Sklar,
Thanks for the great photo. This clears up my quick fix...........just take an exacto knife and cut off the cork from the 'dent' to the axle portion of the key. This way you still have the silencing material and the metal on metal contact will slide quite nicely.
................Paul Aviles
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2010-12-20 20:28
The squishy foam Buffet use is the main cause of this kind of problem - even though they often stick a layer of thin teflon sheet on the surface of it to help, it isn't addressing the fundamental issue. Good design/geometry and good silencing materials make all the difference.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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