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Different types of early R13s?

Author: John Peacock
Date: 2010-11-25 16:11

I know that Robert Carree's polycylindrical design started to be marketed by Buffet in the mid 1950s. If you go to the Buffet website, the earliest instrument that they list is serial number 58835, from 1958. But over the following decade, the instruments seem to come with (at least) 3 distinct names:

No. 1 440 GL
No. 1 440 France
No. 1 440 Amerique

The first bits are simple: No. 1 440 means the standard keywork pitched in A=440. But what do the last names designate? From a limited amount of typing numbers by trial and error, the "GL" designation seems to run from the first properly recorded instrument (58835 in 1958) to 62087 at the end of 1959. Then it becomes "France" in 62088. The earliest "Amerique" I've found is 62972 at the end of 1960. But thereafter the "France" and "Amerique" designations seem to swap around for the rest of the decade.

So what did "GL" mean, and did its disappearance from 62088 signify a redesign? And was there actually a difference in design between the "France" and "Amerique" models? One hears that the development of the S1 and RC models was an attempt to cater for differing tastes in the US and Europe, but was Buffet doing this already in 1960? Maybe someone out there is lucky enough to have several Buffets from 1958-1962 and can comment on any differences.

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Re: Different types of early R13s?

Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2010-11-25 19:09

John -

The latest pre-R13 I've seen is s/n 48707 (1954), and the earliest R13 I've seen is s/n 48829 (1955). I've seen R13 prototypes made before 1955 that were, I think, sold at the factory and had no serial number.

I think the "France" model was at A-442 to 444. The current European model has an F at the beginning of the serial number. See http://www.woodwind.org/clarinet/Equipment/HowOld/Buffet.html. The "Amerique" was/is at A-440. Guy Chadash says the only difference is the length of the barrel.

The R13 has had several design changes that were "slipstreamed" into the production without announcement. My first R13, s/n 64907 (1960) was the original design (duplicated in the Vintage model). The ones I use now in the 125K and 134K range and are the current model.

There were big changes between the pre-R13 keywork and the R13. See http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/read.html?f=1&i=41228&t=41179 and http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/read.html?f=1&i=2280&t=2219.

The biggest change in the R13 was in the mid-60s, when the register vent was enlarged and moved lower to improve the throat Bb. It also changed the tone (I think for the worse). Clark Fobes has written about other changes at http://www.woodwind.org/clarinet/Equipment/Intonation.html.

For "GL," see http://test.woodwind.org/oboe/BBoard/read.html?f=1&i=276937&t=276936.

Ken Shaw

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Re: Different types of early R13s?

Author: John Peacock
Date: 2010-11-25 19:30

Ken: Thanks.

I don't think the "france" designation can mean 442. Serial no. 62099 is
"No. 1 Sib 440 France" so that's explicitly a standard pitch instrument. It could be that the "Amerique" designation meant no more than that they were a batch designated for the export market. But I'm still curious about what "GL" meant: the link you suggested didn't seem to explain the term.

Do you think Buffet succeeded in their aims with the "Vintage" model?

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Re: Different types of early R13s?

Author: Caroline Smale
Date: 2010-11-25 23:30

My R13 (purchased used in USA 25+ years ago Ser No 760xx dates from 1963 I think.
It is definately not polycylindrical but has a bore at top of top joint measuring 14.80/85 tapering evenly down to 14.60 just below speaker tube and being 14.55/60 at centre joint.
The barrel is straight bore of 14.85

Does anyone else have a tapered bore R13?

Is this what the vintage is trying to recreate?

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Re: Different types of early R13s?

Author: GLHopkins
Date: 2010-11-25 23:44

I had a high 46,xxx that was, according to Andy Crisanti, a R-13. It was 3 posts for the A/Ab, and it had the slotted round guide for the top trill keys.

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Re: Different types of early R13s?

Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2010-11-26 13:35

John -

I've played a couple of Vintage models and think Buffet has made a very good replica of the original R13. It was like coming home to 64907. You have to use a resonance fingering for the throat Bb, or use Gigliotti's BTSOOI (Blow The Sh*t Out Of It) method and learn to compensate for the intonation problems.

Ken Shaw

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Re: Different types of early R13s?

Author: John Peacock
Date: 2010-11-26 15:19

Ken: interesting. My interest in this was triggered by a 62,000 series model I got recently (it's a "GL", hence my interest in what this means). It plays beautifully, and I like the sound much better than with modern Buffets - but I hadn't felt any such great improvement when I tried the new vintages. It also seems to have tuning that's at least as good as modern models and I don't notice any issues with Bflat - yes I use a resonance fingering, but I also did this on my modern (well, 1982) Buffet. I've never blown an instrument where you didn't want to have fingers down for A and Bflat. Can you enlarge on the "intonation problems" you mention? All this makes me wonder even more if the change of name from "GL" to "France" at 62088 really did accompany some design change. I suppose the only way to be sure is to assemble a few models from 61,000 and 64,000 - but not even Nick Shackleton managed that.

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