 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Clarimeister
Date: 2010-11-18 06:33
They're extremely inconsistent out of the box, therefore needing a bunch of adjustments done to them during/after conditioning. And, you only get a few that end up being very good, then the rest are decent for practice or just plain suck. but, once you find that good one, it's a gift
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2010-11-18 07:16
I don't especially like the colour of the box, not really because I don't like it, but because I'm colourblind and don't know what it is
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Author: John Peacock
Date: 2010-11-18 08:51
I hate the absurd over-the-top packaging. Apart from being wasteful of materials, opening the silly little foil packages is irritatingly fiddly. I wish they'd go back to the small reed boxes of years gone by. This is of course a criticism not just of V12s. But once you actually get hold of the cane, V12s work better for me than anything else.
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2010-11-18 10:13
I find them to be in need of too much work. I don't mind breaking in reeds but to put almost the same effort on a "finished reed" that one would on a blank is ridiculous. I'll stick with 56s and Standard Vandorens.
...............Paul Aviles
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Author: Reedirect
Date: 2010-11-18 11:01
I like the 56s on my Selmer #9 with HS** MPC much more than the V12s because they produce a more balanced sound than the V12s over the entire range. They are somewhat harder though.
I do not complain about superfluous packaging. Knowing that some retailers allow their customers to test reeds (and let them put it back into the box thereafter, yuk!) I very much appreciate this extra wrapping.
Inconsistency of the reeds is what I have often experienced with the V12s. More than with the 56s.
Best
Jo
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Author: Lelia Loban ★2017
Date: 2010-11-18 13:20
>>Inconsistency of the reeds is what I have often experienced with the V12s.>>
That's my experience as well. I prefer consistent reeds, partly because I double on a bunch of instruments and so I try to reduce the number of other variables. The extra packaging bothers me for environmental reasons, though I do agree with Jo that this packaging is a good way to foil retailers who let customers try reeds and then return them to the boxes. When I buy new reeds, I want new reeds.
Lelia
http://www.scoreexchange.com/profiles/Lelia_Loban
To hear the audio, click on the "Scorch Plug-In" box above the score.
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Author: William
Date: 2010-11-18 14:33
With V12's--like all other cane reeds--you have to deal with the inconsistancies of playing the reed before you can play the music. With Forestones reeds, it is the opposite--play the music without having to first adjust to the new reed. I gave up on V12's and all other cane because 1) they are all inconsistant, 2) to much time is wasted trying to get them into playing condition, & 3) even with the most meticulous prep and care, they just don't last--often going "dead" in the middle of the gig.
Also economics. For the cost of one Forestone reed which will play and last for months, you get a box of V12's and are lucky to maybe find two reeds that will only last a few gigs at best. And then, you need to buy more boxes of V12's to replace them, while you could still be playing your first and superior, Forestone reed. I have gone out to dine with my wife and daughter many times over the past year on the savings of not having to buy boxes of V12's. Think about it......cane is like $$$$$$$$ down the drain.
Forestones always play the same, require no prep (break in, moistening, balancing, etc) and last indefinately. The same can be said for the Legere reeds, however, I much prefer the sound of the Forestone. To me, cane is sooooooooo literally a "thing of the past".
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Author: Bassie
Date: 2010-11-18 15:07
The way the cane is sometimes really porous
The way each half-strength feels about seven times as hard as the next
The size of the box, which is a pain to fit in your case.
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Author: Iceland clarinet
Date: 2010-11-18 16:06
There are much much more things I like about them than I dislike. There is one thing I really don't like and that is I feel they are too roughly finished so I have to do a couple of things to conditioning them and make the vamp more smooth and not as likely to get waterlogged.
One thing I've though noticed as one of the players who sit next to me in the marching band/wind concert band is the tip is getting more delicate and bit more than usually get broken or chipped after the introduction of the Flow pack. But other than that I think the quality is much improved with the Flow pack and maybe it's because of the weather here in Reykjavík Iceland where average outside humidity level is all around the year is ranging between about 65-90% and mostly around 80%.
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Author: Bob Phillips
Date: 2010-11-18 16:11
To agree with the above:
Poor quality to include bad cane, non-uniform hardness, poor left/right balance, low yield of useful reeds, wasteful packaging.
Truly the pain of cain in its worst form.
I did have a couple of memorable ones out of, maybe 6-boxes.
Bob Phillips
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Author: CarlT
Date: 2010-11-18 18:04
Lelia, if you don't mind, what reeds do you use?
I certainly am not advanced, but I, too, seldom find a good V12 without a lot of adjusting.
When I bought my R13 back in July, I was given a free sample of Rico Grand Concert Selects in various sizes. The #3 I tried proved to be a very good one, so I purchased a box. Guess what, I have yet to find one like the sample (haven't tried the whole box yet though)???
CarlT
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2010-11-18 18:35
What is the strength equivalent of a Forestone reed to a Vadoren 56 Nr. 4?
...........Paul Aviles
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Author: Iceland clarinet
Date: 2010-11-18 20:04
Different variation of strength in each box can sometimes be useful and is easily adjusted as well as poor left right balance and we are talking about often less than a minute up to 2 minute adjustment.
I personally find them more balanced after they introduced the 10 reed/box Flow Pack packing.
That's one of the reason I didn't like Gonzalez very well in the long term as it was a bit difficult to find reeds to work both in very dry or very wet(I don't know how you say it) acoustics.
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Author: William
Date: 2010-11-18 22:01
Paul, fwiw, I use a F4 on my Chicago Kaspar #14. I used to play V12's 3.5--hope this helps a bit.
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Author: ddavani
Date: 2010-11-18 23:56
I often would end up opening a box only to find 1 good reed and 9 poor reeds of different caliber, sometimes you waste a ton of money ruining reeds when you work on them.
Also, I found that I started to open up unopened packages and some of the reeds were chipped at the top. That sent me and I wound up switching to Grand Concert TB's.
-Dave Davani
http://allclarinet.blogspot.com/
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Author: grifffinity
Date: 2010-11-19 00:14
My mouthpiece is not thick blank reed friendly - which I'm fine with. I like a nice dense cane like Gonzales - which are well aged, well cut and consistent in the box. I have no problem playing `10 out or 10 in a box...not all for performance, but none go to waste.
I do keep Vandoren blue box on hand for the summer - the humidity makes those reeds respond better (while the Gonzales tend to get too hard during this time of year)
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2010-11-19 06:10
I also don't like the new bigger box where each reed is in wrapped with plastic. But what I do when opening a new box is take all the reeds out, then put them all without the plastic wrap in one of the older smaller boxes which I still have to put in the case.
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Author: Lelia Loban ★2017
Date: 2010-11-19 13:39
>> Lelia, if you don't mind, what reeds do you use? >>
I'm an amateur, so please don't take me too seriously -- but on modern mouthpieces for clarinets in B-flat and A, I generally use Mitchell Lurie Premiums (made by Rico) in size 3-1/2. They're reasonably priced and very consistent. An unplayable one is extremely rare in my experience. For antique mouthpieces with a shorter, narrower lay than modern mouthpieces, I often find that Black Master or White Master reeds fit without whittling -- and they're good reeds, too.
Reeds are among those items that I think reasonable people can disagree about. We're using so many different types of mouthpieces here, and we've got many different types of mouths, and we're playing so many different types of music, that one type (let alone one size) of reed will never fit all.
Lelia
http://www.scoreexchange.com/profiles/Lelia_Loban
To hear the audio, click on the "Scorch Plug-In" box above the score.
Post Edited (2010-11-19 13:40)
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Author: kdk
Date: 2010-11-19 15:14
As I've read all the replies to this thread, I'm wondering why, with the unprecedented variety of reed brands and models that are available today, we're still singling out V12s for a discussion like this. If they are really a standard against which everything else is still judged, there must be a lot of players who are still using them happily (or as happily as any reed can be used). If they're as generally bad as these replies make them sound, why are we still comparing other reeds to them and, worse, why are some of us still using them?
Just wondering....
Karl
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Author: John Peacock
Date: 2010-11-19 20:48
It's like Churchill's view on democracy: the worst possible choice, except all the alternatives...
More seriously, the thing I find about V12's is that they settle down after a week or two of sporadic playing and then a good one (i.e. the best one or two from the box) can last for a long time. I've tried lots of other makes and gone through phases of thinking they are better than V12's. What this means is that half the box seem to be playing in a promising way early on. But then the more you work on them, they fade away, and where you initially hoped for a number of good reeds, you end up with not a single one that's suitable for a concert. I had this progression from initial delight to disillusion most recently with Zonda. But V12's keep on giving a couple of successes per box, which is probably the most its realistic to expect. I've never experienced the problems people mention about mangled tips.
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Author: SHMbass
Date: 2010-11-20 13:52
Inconsistencies with the grain of the cane; if you look at them while holding up to a light, one can see there are thick fibers unevenly spaced with very thin fibers. All reeds have this, but I believe that Vandoren is especially noticeable. Even keeping the reeds in a glass reed case, they warp.
Sometimes they are thick to one side, not nearly as terrible as blue-boxes, but certain a nuisance to adjust every reed.
Recently bought a box of #4's; green as fresh bananas
Though all reeds no matter what have problems.
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Author: William
Date: 2010-11-20 14:10
"Though all reeds no matter what have problems".
Precisely why I've choosen the synthetic reed, Forestone, and am "problem" free. Just put one on my mpc and play. Once you become used to the feel, you can do anything with them that is possible on a cane reed. I think many of us can agree that the synthetic reed--either Legere or Forestone--is the reed of the future. If something better comes along, I'll give it a try, but for now, Forestone is my choice--on all my clarinets and saxophones, btw.
FWIW--cane reeds make great firestarters..........
Post Edited (2010-11-20 14:12)
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Author: kdk
Date: 2010-11-20 15:02
SHMbass wrote:
> Inconsistencies with the grain of the cane; if you look at them
> while holding up to a light, one can see there are thick fibers
> unevenly spaced with very thin fibers. All reeds have this,
> but I believe that Vandoren is especially noticeable.
I'd have agreed with you maybe 30 years ago, although in my own opinion (yours clearly differs) this is no longer any more true for any of the Vandorens than it is for any other reeds I've tried recently. But in any case this kind of appearance doesn't necessarily mean the reed won't play well.
> Even keeping the reeds in a glass reed case, they warp.
Again, our experiences clearly differ. In my experience reeds tend to warp because I put them flat on glass. Wood warps when it dries faster on one side than on the opposite side. When I store my reeds in cases that hold them on their edges so both top and bottom dry evenly, Vandorens don't warp, either.
>
> Sometimes they are thick to one side, not nearly as terrible as
> blue-boxes, but certain a nuisance to adjust every reed.
>
This is legend, true of other brands as well, and supposedly deliberate to accommodate a theorized tendency of players to rotate the clarinet counterclockwise because of the way the right thumb supports the instrument. It may be a deal breaker for some players - I don't think, for example, that the Rico Reserves (traditional or classic) are cut this way. I don't find the small amount of work to balance this to be a problem, and at least the imbalance is predictable.
> Recently bought a box of #4's; green as fresh bananas
Again, not unique to Vandoren in general or V12 in particular. That it was "a box" suggests that this isn't a consistent problem with Vandorens even for you.
>
> Though all reeds no matter what have problems.
Exactly. With all the reeds (including the synthetics) that have come onto the market in the last 10 years or so, there's certainly enough choice for anyone. But Vandoren is still a viable one and, all things considered, a good choice for many of us.
Interesting topic, though. Some replies have mentioned specific preferences. I find myself wondering, where posters haven't suggested a favorite alternative, what those who hate Vandoren (and V12 specifically) are using instead.
Karl
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Author: SHMbass
Date: 2010-11-20 15:35
It is very possible that it is just me, though it seems with the boxes of V12s I have had they all had that similar grain "issue" that I had mentioned. As you mention kdk, this has no effect to the sound more than it is a matter of the appearance of not uniform grain. These were all 3.5 sized reeds, as the box of #4 was purely an experiment that must have been just that one box being green. The warping when closely examined related the denser fibers (where a warp in the reed was, there was a denser fiber at the beginning of the warp). I noticed this problem of warping when using the plastic holders that have the grooves cut into the "table" of the reed holder to aid in drying the underside of the reed. The warping only occurs once the reed has been moistened, not just so laying in the reed holder, so if someone has a tip or advice for that matter it would be appreciated. My experience with reeds being thicker on one side should have been clarified; the heart of the reed when observed with a light behind the reed to shine through the reed shows that the many V12s I have had are thicker to the left side towards the heart of the reed (the shadow of the heart extends towards the tip of the reed farther than the right side). The tip itself is of uniform cut: I was not inferring that the entire reed is one strength to the left and different to the right due to uneven thickness. They are easily adjusted, just an extra step required in the adjustment process.
As kdk stated, this is merely my opinion with the V12 reeds that I have worked with. I perform on them, and prefer them over other brands that I have tried. Though I am in the process of trying Rico Reserve Classic reeds.
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Author: kdk
Date: 2010-11-20 17:16
SHMbass wrote:
> ...The warping when closely examined
> related the denser fibers (where a warp in the reed was, there
> was a denser fiber at the beginning of the warp). ..
> The warping only occurs once the reed has been moistened
> not just so laying in the reed holder...
This isn't true warpage, it's just a waviness in the tip that results from the dry reed's uneven absorption of saliva (or water, if you use a container of tap water instead). Any reed - even regular Ricos, will do this, especially after they get a little older. It's an indicator that the reed isn't wet enough. It will straighten as the reed soaks up moisture, but it can be straightened more quickly sometimes by manually massaging the wet tip with your thumb over a flat surface (the mouthpiece table is convenient). Trying to solve this kind of problem is one reason for the several humidifying systems that are currently on the market - their purpose is to maintain a minimal level of moisture even when the reed is in storage.
Warpage is a convex curve that develops across the back (the flat side) of the reed and is in my opinion generally caused, as I said, by uneven drying between the top and bottom surfaces. Again, any reed that is dried this way *can* warp (become concave across the back). Many players I know, even if they use flat glass holders, try to dry their reeds flat side up before putting them in the cases.
Karl
Post Edited (2010-11-20 17:58)
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