 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: karlbonner82
Date: 2010-11-15 07:44
Most of the discussion on materials is this: in a marching band, use a plastic horn since it handles the weather better, and there's less financial risk of stumbling while marching and your horn taking a plunge. In marching the tone quality is very unimportant. In the concert hall, use wood because the tone color is much deeper and intonation better. Indoors you are very unlikely to get rained on or exposed to severe temperatures, and there aren't nearly as many chances to trip and fall.
But there are other venues besides these two, including outdoor concerts, pep rallies, jazz ensembles, street corners, and various non-classical, non-jazz gigs that occur in noisy places. I wonder for which of these the wood clarinet has a significant advantage over the plastic one.
I'm also curious about hard rubber horns. It seems they would be the best of both worlds: safe to use in marching but a good enough tone for concert halls unless you are a professional or near-pro. Of course I already have a plastic one so I'll be going straight for wood. But if you were buying a first instrument I bet rubber would be a smart move.
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Author: SteveG_CT
Date: 2010-11-15 14:28
The whole issue of body material has been debated endlessly. My personal opinion is that the material a clarinet is made out of matters much less than the quality of the design and the level of craftsmanship used to create it.
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2010-11-16 12:51
Let me say that there is no IDEAL clarinet that is both indistructable (or cheap) and wonderful to play.
As for the hard rubber/plastic/Greenline horns one thing to keep in mind is that the tenon between the upper and lower joint is more brittle with these materials compared to wood. I have (on occassion) had a clarinet tip over onto its face onto a hard floor. The composite material clarinet (in my live fire test) cracked in half, leaving the tenon of the top joint firmly planted in the socket of the lower joint.
Just a word of advice to all you guys doing the "grapevine" out on the parade field.
....................Paul Aviles
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2010-11-16 13:19
Tangentially related: A pet peeve of mine is the rampant misuse of the term "composite" --- a composite material is made of two unlike components: a resin binder, and a (usually) fiber matrix (e.g. glass, Kevlar or carbon fibers) embedded in the resin. If the material is just the resin, as with plastic or hard rubber clarinets, then those are not composite materials -- they are simply 'plastic' or 'hard rubber'. In contrast, the Buffet Greenlines, with grenadilla powder imbedded in a resin matrix, are composites. End of sermon.
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2010-11-16 13:43
David,
the problem is more that there is no "generic" term for a class of material that is neither wood nor metal but rather some chemically engineered stuff. (from ABS over Hard Rubber to Greenline)
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Ben
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Author: justme
Date: 2010-11-16 14:05
Chris J quoted another: " other materials are available..." And then posted a picture...
One word:
SHOWOFF! ![[grin]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/smilie5.gif) ![[hot]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/hot.gif)
"A critic is like a eunuch: he knows exactly how it ought to be done."
CLARINET, n.
An instrument of torture operated by a person with cotton in his ears. There are two instruments that are worse than a clarinet -- two clarinets
Post Edited (2010-11-16 14:06)
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2010-11-16 14:21
Ben, I agree with you that there is no generic term for "non-wood non-metal non-composite", but nevertheless it is incorrect to use the term "composite" for homogeneous materials such as plastics and hard rubber.
Don't force me to fly out to Zurich and engage in fisticuffs with you over this vitally-important semantic issue!
(If I do, you'll have to point me in the direction of that amazing orange-flavored cork grease...........).
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2010-11-16 17:42
It may have been my post that set you off Dave, so I will clarify that the clarinet that toppled and broke was a Greenline (aka composite material). I believe that plastic (a non composite.....clearly), and hard rubber (also a non composite.....still obvious) would also crack much like my composite clarinet.
In contrast, I have dropped numerous wooden clarinets onto various surfaces with much better results.
My main point is that there are other things to consider besides hygromatic issues and perhaps the wood clarinet may be better at some aspects of resilience too.
..............Paul Aviles
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2010-11-16 18:36
Points well taken, Paul.
As a side note, in my lifetime I've dropped two crystal bass clarinet mouthpieces (made of a non-wood, non-metal, non-plastic, non-rubber non-composite material) with wildly different results, both onto concrete floors:
In the first instance the mouthpiece immediately disintegrated into a
plethora of tiny shards of glass; in the second instance the mouthpiece bounced, and bounced, and bounced, and....finally came to rest with nary a chip, nor crack, nor any damage whatsoever -- I continued to play on that one for years afterwards.
My point? I don't know -- just ramblin'.
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2010-11-16 23:20
When a composite clarinet snaps or otherwise disintegrates, is it then a decomposite?
--
Ben
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Author: Klarnetisto
Date: 2010-11-17 03:47
Chris J's photos raise an important point; high-quality vintage metal clarinets offer the best of both: durability in all weather conditions, and excellent musical performance.
I have a French Selmer full-Boehm Bb like that in Chris' first photo (now I just need to find a full-Boehm metal A to go with it...!). Selmer built these to the same exact specs as their pro-quality wood clarinets at the time (mine dates from 1930). And mine performs accordingly!
I also have a US military Cundy-Bettoney Eb, which is excellent.
I just gave my daughter a metal Buescher True-Tone. Still unrestored, with fairly destroyed pads, it's nearly 100% playable with astonishing evenness through all registers, and is gorgeously in tune.
Here's a quick list of top-quality vintage metal clarinets:
Bettoney: Silva-Bet, H. Bettoney and military models (US, USQMC, etc.)
Buescher (their metal clarinets were only pro-quality): 710 Albert, 730 & 740 Boehm; telescoping tuning barrels
Buffet (rare!)
C. G. Conn (i.e. pre-WW2): includes model 514N (all-purpose); 524N (jazz); the "armored" clarinet (double-walled with hard rubber filling!); very early doubled-walled Conns (production started in 1895) are Albert system only, and High Pitch!
Harry Pedler (NB: If Harry's first name is missing from the logo, then it comes from a later date and is less than pro-quality); Albert system available
Penzel-Mueller: included double-walled Clari-Met; there was also at least a metal version of the Artist model; I have read that some of these were inconsistent in quality, though.
Henri Selmer: included Eb, Bb, A, Eb alto; full-Boehm available (also Albert?); telescoping tuning barrels
H. N. White: Silver King (see Chris' second photo; includes US models for the Navy), later Microsonic and Silversonic ; some had solid Sterling silver bells (I have one, as yet unrestored); later models featured double-walled barrels and/or bells
Mid-line metal clarinets can still be quite good:
Bettoney: Boston Wonder
Conn's Pan American division did midline work: clarinet models included the Brilliante, Moderne and Special. My unrestored Special has an astonishingly good throat G! And it's solidly built -- should restore nicely! The Moderne was essentially a no-frills version of the Conn 524N (so was the Brilliante?); I just got one on eBay two days ago, and look forward to discovering what it can do.
Holton: Elkhart
Noblet: models with the raised diamond logo are said to be the best
Pedler: Custombuilt, Première, 400
H. N. White: Cleveland; those with double-walled bells are said to be the best
Here's a great website:
http://www.clarinette-metal.fr/
It's in French, but I'm working up an English translation... I have just one chapter to finish now!
Klarnetisto
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Author: SteveG_CT
Date: 2010-11-17 06:03
I agree that metal clarinets are under-appreciated. I compare the plight of metal clarinets to be similar to that of upright pianos. There are certainly some excellent ones out there but there are tons that are basically garbage-quality. Due to this fact there is a stigma against metal clarinets such that many players associate them with poor quality, fair or not.
I've got a couple of them and like the way they play. I bought an HN White Cleveland from Dave Spiegelthal a few months ago and liked it so much that I have snagged a few others since then.
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Author: Klarnetisto
Date: 2010-11-17 13:42
I think I finally figured out why metal flutes caught on but metal clarinets didn't.
It's simply because so many, many more mediocre-to-poor quality metal clarinets were made than flutes!
That's because the traditional wind band needed a great number of clarinets, but didn't tend to have more many flutes than they did oboes or bassoons (by the time I was in school bands in the 1970s, the flute had become so popular that I was in some bands where flutes outnumbered clarinets! But that didn't represent a proper instrumental balance). So literally hundreds of thousands of student-model clarinets were made for the US market, both domestically and in Europe, and a great many of these were metal before plastic took over this market after WW2.
So, just by sheer statistical probability, if one came across a metal clarinet in those days, it was probably mediocre. That somehow sealed the reputation of all metal clarinets, in spite of the reality that more than one excellent company put their best efforts into pro-model metal clarinets.
I read somewhere that Selmer discontinued their metal clarinet line because they found that making them was bad for their reputation! And a clarinetist in the Boston Symphony under Koussevitsky lost his job because K didn't like seeing him with a metal clarinet (aforementioned French Selmer)!
Klarnetisto
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Author: Chris J
Date: 2010-11-17 17:56
Klarnetisto
Great review of the range of quality metal clarinets available. I would add another maker, however. Couesnon make some well respected instruments of professional grade, clarinets included. I have a couple of Monopole sopranos.
But they also made metal clarinets:
BTW - The full Boehm pictured of my pair of Selmers is the A, not the Bb!
Chris
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Author: BobD
Date: 2010-11-17 18:18
Wow, Chris, that's a beautiful horn. Having worked professionally as a Materials Engineer I do have some opinions on the subject of "plastics". Since the beginning of the Plastics Era various extra ingredients have been added to the basic plastic substance thus at least semantically makng them composites. The term composite probably meant...to many....an ingredient added to impart extra strength or toughness. Some may even argue that two part epoxy should not be termed a plastic which then makes the Greenline "somethng else". Thermoset plastics such as "Bakelite" typically had fillers added in the mix thus making them composites.
Dave knew he'd get me excited by making his original statement, now I can go back to sleep.
Bob Draznik
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2010-11-17 18:34
Always good to spin you up, Draz --- gotta keep your life exciting for ya!
Good points, though. I do remember Bakelite circuit boards for vintage electronics that had some sort of fibers in the mix, like an early form of fiberglass. It's certainly not clear to me at what point the addition of fillers change as material from a homogeneous 'plastic' to a heterogeneous 'composite' (I just love using those big words derived from Latin or Greek!). Anyway, who cares?
To get back on point, as I once wrote in another of these interminable threads about clarinet body material choices -- it is feasible to build clarinets at any quality level (from horrible to wonderful) out of various woods, various plastics, hard rubber, and metals. That is the reality. What limits the variety of clarinets available on the market is perception, not physics. Darned marketeers.........
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2010-11-17 18:59
For what it's worth, I use my metal Swiss Army clarinet each winter for outdoors - and get constantly asked if that's a soprano saxophone.
On the next outdoors gig we're not enough saxes, and guess what ol'Ben is playing for subbing - a plastic Bundy Alto clarinet! Yee-haw!
--
Ben
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2010-11-17 20:03
I do have a Sax (a Martin Busine - Grassi stencil), and I can play sax any time I want - but when do you have the occasion to play your precious Alto Clarinet? See. Toldya.
(Besides, "learn to play" and "play good" are two different things.)
Hmm. You mean I should...nah. Then again... OH DRAT!
--
Ben
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2010-11-17 20:40
Speaking of clarinet materials, saxes, cabbages and kings --- many of our esteemed readers wonder whether clarinets made of non-wood materials (especially metal) still sound like clarinets. I of course know the answer (for I have been granted access to the Sacred Font of All Knowledge), but let's turn the question around a little, thusly:
Has anyone here ever played, or heard anyone play live, one of the old Grafton plastic alto saxes that were made in England during the 1950s, and played (for a time) by Charlie Parker, Ornette Coleman, etc.? I would think that if the material composition of a small-diameter but thick-walled tube such as a clarinet body had a significant audible effect on the tone quality, then changing the body material on an instrument such as a saxophone (with its large-diameter and thin-walled body) should make an enormous difference in the sound quality. One might think.
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2010-11-17 20:54
One might.
But what's important is not what we have, but what we make of it. Best example is our brain...
--
Ben
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Author: Chris J
Date: 2010-11-17 21:14
Moving from the esoteric to the mundane...
The wood-rubber-plastic(-metal) and the advantages/disadvantages of material debate made me think about weight of instrument.
So I have just weighed a few (I know - I need to get out into the fresh air more) and was quite surprised. (units for the majority audience...)
Leblanc Opus (wood) = 1lb 12 3/8 oz
Silver King (metal) = 1lb 10 1/4 oz (solid silver bell)
Couesnon Monopole (wood) = 1lb 9 5/8 oz
Yamaha 26 (plastic) = 1lb 8 1/8 oz
B12 (plastic) = 1lb 6 5/8 oz
And the lightest is
Couesnon (metal) = 1lb 5 1/8 oz
The metal Couesnon is 7oz lighter than the wooden leblanc! It is 25% lighter.
That was the bit that surprised me
Chris
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Author: Klarnetisto
Date: 2010-11-18 02:00
Stick with the alto clarinet. You have to do your part to prove that this instrument is not "obsolete"!
Klarnetisto
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Author: BobD
Date: 2010-11-18 10:49
Dave....I know where you're coming from and respect your experience. The early thermosets used for electrical devices typically used asbestos or linen for fillers.
For a long time auto brake pads had asbestos filler and that dust was probably what caused a lot of respiratory problems......but that was kept under the rug.
Differences in weight of black wood clarinets probably relates to the density of the woods. Pot metal vs Nickel silver could be an issue with regard to keywork.
Bob Draznik
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