 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: USFBassClarinet
Date: 2010-10-28 03:30
Just caught PBS playing Mahlers 7th with the Chicago symphony with Boulez conducting. I thought it was a pretty dull and lifeless recording by the orchestra, especially for one of the 'Big' orchestras in the U.S.
Anyone else catch it? Am I just crazy and missed the entire point of the 7th symphony somehow? It is only the 2nd time I have heard it.
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Author: Tom A
Date: 2010-10-28 05:27
I can't speak to the performance you heard, but I'm the first to admit that I find the 7th to be the least satisfactory of the symphonies in terms of musical development. To my humble ear, there are places where it could do with a slight trim (the 4th movement comes to mind; it just seems a bit long for its material).
Having said that, I think it will grow on you. It's colourful and imaginative, and I find the 2nd and 3rd movements to be especially evocative. To hear it live is an experience.
I remember reading in a book about the Mahler symphonies an opinion that the unease with the 7th may be partly explained by its place between the descent into hell of the 6th, and the storming of heaven in the 8th. In between those two, we have a nighttime walk in the woods. Interesting. Could be rubbish, or there could be something in that.
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2010-10-28 13:01
Check out the recording of Gus's 7th with the Amsterdam Concertgebouw under Haitink. Oh yeah!
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2010-10-28 14:32
WOW, I'm glad someone else said that first. I couldn't believe a group of some of the best talent in the country could be lead in such a way to SUCK every last drop of music out of the performance like that. The only musical moments where courtesy of Mr. Dale Clevenger.......still one of the best of the best.
My theory is that Mr. Boulez is bored by tonal music and couldn't focus on it long enough to prevent anyone else from realizing this.
What a shame............awful performance.
......................Paul Aviles
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Author: Ed Palanker
Date: 2010-10-28 15:04
We opened our season this year with the 7th. Half empty houses of course. It's his least interesting symphony in my opinion and I believe it would take an extremely motivated and talented conductor to pull it off properly. I love Mahler, even the 7th, and the only one I really don't care for is the 8th, to much vocal for me for a symphony. ESP http://eddiesclarinet.com
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2010-10-28 15:09
I watched it live. Boulez is now 85 and has pretty much lost it. Even though he knew the score, he wandered between 1/2 second ahead of the beat and 1/2 second behind it. The CSO played pretty much conductorless.
There was lots of very fine playing. The tenor horn player was gorgeous, as were all the section principals. However, the camera director must hate the clarinet and bassoon. There were probably 100 shots of the 3rd stand of the 1st violins and along the trumpet section when they weren't playing, plus the principal flute and oboe, but almost none of John Bruce Yeh or David McGill.
Dale Clevinger was great. We went to the same high school, where he was two years ahead of me, and he was amazing even then.
Ken Shaw
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Author: vjoet
Date: 2010-10-28 16:25
Indeed, it totally lacked vitality for all the life was sucked out of it. It was unsatisfying, and after 15 minutes I turned it off. Wonder what the paid critics are saying?
vJoe
(amateur)
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Author: arundo
Date: 2010-10-28 17:31
Try Boulez's 7th with Cleveland; or his 5th and 6th with Vienna; or his 9th with Chicago. Superb.
mark dickman
7738565490
markdickman82@hotmail.com
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Author: BobD
Date: 2010-10-28 21:50
I only saw the final few minutes plus a very appreciative audience reaction. I believe this selection was made by Muti whose illness prevented his conducting it. Boulez was pinch hitting for him. I think that Muti's sudden illness has had a very sobering effect on all of us who love the CSO.
Bob Draznik
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Author: USFBassClarinet
Date: 2010-10-28 21:56
Different tastes I guess.
After looking at my ITunes again, the recording I have of it is also from Chicago but with Abbado conducting from 1984. I find it to be a very good recording actually.
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Author: diz
Date: 2010-10-29 00:08
It's my favourite Mahler symphony, so there's absolutely no accounting for taste.
Without music, the world would be grey, very grey.
Post Edited (2010-10-29 00:10)
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2010-10-29 12:26
Mahler, particulary the 7th, is a study in GESTURES. If the musicians (well actually the conductor) is not interested in exploring what are purely performance aspects of sound, it comes of sounding like the other night.
I have the Haitink/Concertgebouw recording. This is not the most critically acclaimed version by any means but a VAST difference in sound if anybody who only knows the other night's perfomance wishes to hear how it should sound.
...................Paul Aviles
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Author: bau55536
Date: 2010-11-01 04:30
I need to jump in on this one...
While Mahler's 7th isn't the most familiar to me, I'm going to agree and disagree with some of the opinions above.
I was in the hall Thursday, Oct 14 (recording was taken from Oct 14-15, I don't recall if I saw that in the opening credits from last Wed) and what I heard that night doesn't resemble anything near what I heard on the PBS broadcast. I agree, the broadcast audio was mediocre at best.
Even the live performance may not have been up to the CSO's normally high level of performance, as the work was moved up by nearly 5 months with about 7-8 days notice (at least externally, only the members or someone else closer could tell us what they actually received. I was notified of the change the weekend before as I had tickets for the original performance date out in March.) What I heard in the hall was excellent, and quite well played. Balance, blend, intonation were all at the level I've come to expect with CSO, and in some cases I think even better than the norm. Maestro Muti's influence, I think. (I also heard the Berlioz program several weeks ago, and the playing there was at this same level.)
The are several possibilities that I can attribute the broadcast to. First is the possibility that the performance broadcast was either all or mostly from Friday evening, and I didn't witness that, and it could have been a substantially different performance than Thursday...unlikely, but possible. The more plausible is the possibility that either Great Performances or the local PBS affiliates severely compressed the video and audio to levels that while acceptable, limit the subtle nuances that we would expect to be there.
I do have to agree with Ken that Dale's performance was substantially better than in the recent past. I hate to admit that I had to agree with whomever the music critic was from NY who noted Dale's performance at the recent Carnegie Hall performance. Most definitely last season he seemed to miss at least 3-4 notes in major solos on every performance I attended (15-18.)
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Author: Gregory Smith ★2017
Date: 2010-11-01 05:57
http://video.pbs.org/video/1626498784/
edited to add -
No defense or "excuses" offered, just some observations to be considered.
1) Yes, much is lost in compressed recorded sound vs. live sound - production values both audio and visual also come into play.
2) Boulez has always tried to let the music speak for itself (both a strength and a weakness depending on one's perspective).
3) The 7th Symphony of Mahler is not the extroverted type compared to his other symphonies which, in context with the rest of his work, is not necessarily a weakness.
4) Many listeners, including very accomplished performers, will listen with their eyes rather than their ears.
Gregory Smith
Post Edited (2010-11-01 08:56)
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2010-11-01 10:10
Sorry Greg,
Not a slam on the clarinets by any means. As usual there were many good moments for various sections of the orchestra and some good solo work, but it is up to the conductor to do the speaking. An orchestra, no matter how accomplished needs a UNIFIED vision. If there is no one to take the helm, as in a conductor who lets "the music speak for itself," what you get is bland at best.
.................Paul Aviles
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Author: Gregory Smith ★2017
Date: 2010-11-01 10:53
Hi Paul -
As I mentioned in #2 above, Boulez did speak in a non-haphazard manner - it is just his own *style* of speaking, whether one considers it their cup of tea or not. It is NOT a matter of competence or ability or desire to unify. I believe that what you object to lies in the manner that he chooses to unify.
Those who have had complaints with Boulez's interpretations fall along the lines that you too find objectionable. In the hall, live that night, the noted "coolness" was indeed felt to a certain degree that may have been amplified by the medium through which it was heard.
BTW, particularly in the 7th symphony, there is less of a need to "pour honey on sugar" interpretively speaking. I have played and heard interpretations that tried to extract every last drop of expressiveness from what's written with little or no added benefit.
But as always, remember, that's just my opinion.
Gregory Smith
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2010-11-01 12:14
Dear Greg Smith,
Duly noted.
Thank you very much for your input.
..............Paul Aviles
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Author: arundo
Date: 2010-11-01 18:04
The last time I heard Boulez live was in the late 60's, when he conducted the Cleveland in Le Sacre, The Berg Violin Concerto (with Raphel Druian) and the Debussy Rhapsodie (with Robert Marcellus); so I can't judge his current conducting. Nevertheless, I have recordings of his Debussy, Ravel, Bartok, Berg and the Mahler Symphonies 2, 3, 5, 6, 7 and 9 -- and they're the best I've ever heard. For my money, he's the greatest conductor of 20th century music.
mark dickman
7738565490
markdickman82@hotmail.com
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Author: Old Geezer
Date: 2010-11-02 17:17
His other work aside, I thought Boulez conducting of the Mahler telecast was like something out of a horror movie...say The Living Dead with Boulez starring.
He seemed more like an audience member who had wandered on stage and was trying to keep time with the orchestra...and failing.
Clarinet Redux
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