 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: CarlT
Date: 2010-10-28 00:20
One of my practice books is "Melodious and Progressive Studies, Book 1" (David Hite). In it, typically there is a suggested tempo, which I take to be a "goal", but not necessarily achieveable before going on to the next study.
For example, I am currently working on his D Major study, and the suggested tempo is quarter note = 88.
There are a whole series of 16th notes in this study, and I am lucky to play these notes "well" at a quarter note = 60, let alone 88.
What would you advise a student to do in this case...practice until he/she can get to 88, or would you advise practicing at as fast a tempo as practical within a reasonable period of time, and then going on to the next study (if I have to get to 88, I believe I will be on this study for a loooooong time).
CarlT
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Author: EEBaum
Date: 2010-10-28 00:56
Play it through at a tempo that works for you but is a bit of a stretch. You can always go through the book again at a faster tempo in a couple years if you like.
-Alex
www.mostlydifferent.com
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Author: andrewsong
Date: 2010-10-28 02:36
It's best to start at a tempo, at which you can all the notes. This way, you're not subconsciously making a habit of getting wrong ntoes when you're at too fast a tempo. Stay on a tempo where you can get it perfect. Then try going a bit faster until thats perfect, then go a little faster.
This is just my way btw...
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Author: Lelia Loban ★2017
Date: 2010-10-28 15:25
I think this is one of the hardest questions to answer and the right answer may vary from one person to the next. Since I memorize unintentionally and quickly, I do need to make sure I play the right notes to the extent possible, starting with the very first sight-reading. Otherwise, I memorize the errors and repeat them, and have an awful time unlearning them. But, unfortunately, the memorization process for me includes the tempo. If the music is so difficult for me that I have to practice v-e-r-y s-l-o-w-l-y for a long time just to get the notes right, then I memorize slow playing and have a real battle getting the music up to speed.
So, for me, part of the answer to that question is: Don't choose music that's too far over my head. Choose to progress in steady, do-able increments instead of trying to make giant leaps. Another part of my answer is: Before playing a note, study the score. Read the music carefully without any musical instrument. Go through there, "hear" the music in my head, pay attention to the dynamics, the key signature and the key changes, find the tricky passages, choose between fingerings that aren't obvious at a glance and make as many of the other choices as possible in advance. For me, that slow beginning means much better sight-reading and faster progress later on.
Lelia
http://www.scoreexchange.com/profiles/Lelia_Loban
To hear the audio, click on the "Scorch Plug-In" box above the score.
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Author: BartHx
Date: 2010-10-28 15:48
Studies have shown that the brain can learn a pattern, if it is repeated correctly, in as few as seven times. However, it can take as many as thirty-five repetitions to unlearn one incorrect repetition and replace it with the correct one. That would imply to me that the best approach would be to start at a speed at which you can play the notes correctly, learn the correct pattern, and gradually increase speed to your target. Consider that similar patterns with slight variations can be learned in context.
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Author: Sylvain
Date: 2010-10-28 16:03
Correct me if I'm wrong, but the question is not about at what speed one should start practicing, but at what speed one should be satisfied and move on to the next exercise.
My answer is it depends. If you are practicing scales, I think it is better at first to know *all* your scales at a slow tempo rather than know *only one* at a fast tempo.
However, one has to eventually move that metronome up to a tempo out of one's comfort zone and learn to play fast.
So Carl, my advice to you is to go through the entire book at slower tempi rather than stick to one study for a very long time and work it up to speed. BUT, I would also isolate one or two of the difficult bars in each study and really try to get them as close to the tempo as possible.
--
Sylvain Bouix <sbouix@gmail.com>
Post Edited (2010-10-28 17:46)
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Author: salzo
Date: 2010-10-28 23:36
That is interesting. I know in my practice, and what I ask my students to do, is when you play a wrong note, rhythm, whatever, IMMEDIATELY play it correctly five times in a row. When doing it 5x correctly, chances are good that the next time you play it, it will be correct-if it isn't do it 5x again. Quickly the mistake gets worked out of your brain.
Regarding what speed- If the speed required/recommended is 88, then they play it from the beginning at 88. I use other methods to deal with working out passages, but slowing the tempo down is not something that I, or my students do.
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Author: CarlT
Date: 2010-10-29 01:16
Thanks, all. I appreciate your very thoughtful responses.
Salzo said,referring to his students, "...If the speed required/recommended is 88, then they play it from the beginning at 88..."
It could be that the David Hite book I referred to and am using at the moment is too advanced for me; however, I finished Rubank I several months ago, and am now several lessons into Rubank II (my teacher thinks I'm doing very well in it I might add), and I'm using the Hite book for supplemental studies (mainly scale practice by a more enjoyable method than just straight up and down scales).
I mentioned a lot of 1/16th notes in the particular study referred to in my original post. When I calculate it, if 1/4 notes are at 88 bpm, then 1/16ths would be 352 per minute, or about 6 per second. There is no way in heck I can play well at 6 beats per second.
Now, Mr. Salzo, would you suggest that I just stop using the Hite book altogether since I am not capable (or may never be for that matter) of producing 6 beats per second well?
Wouldn't Sylvain's (and others') recommendations for me make more sense...playing at a tempo that I can do well, and then going on to something else? As suggested by others, I could come back at a later date and in all likelyhood play it well, and faster.
CarlT
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Author: salzo
Date: 2010-10-29 01:58
Carl-
I dont know about all those calculations you got going about beats per second, notes per second, etc- I dont think that is important and I think you would be better off not worrying about all that stuff.
I dont know what type of player you are, but I can tell you that I start my students in the Pares Scale studies shortly after finishing Rubank Elementary.
You say you cant do it at that tempo, I think there is probably a good chance you can, you just do not realize it.
I am not familiar with the Hite, but I do not think that matters.
If you want to, try this:
Put your metronome on 88. before you even play it, Look at the exercise you are working on.
Start on first note, and play only up to the first note of the second beat.
If you can do it, play to the first note of the next beat, continue until you hit a snag-Isolate where the problem is, and work that problem-for discussion sake, lets say it is a particular beat. Play only that beat. If you cant play the beat, play half a beat, and if you cant do that, play one note. Point is, start by playing only what you can play. POlay that five times, stay relaxed, and notice how simple it is. Now add more to it-only add what you can play. YOu fiogure out how much you can play by looking at it and deciding how much you KNOW you can add. Do the same process, continue adding until the snag is fixed. What is most important, is that you are focusing on the metronome more than anything else. It is very natural to slow down, over work the parts you are having difficulty. Most problems dealing with playing the clarinet are rooted in excessive work, or adding elements that are not only unnecessary, but detrimental and the cause of the problem. The metronome prevents you from allowing yourself the time to add the excessive work which is causing the problem. Basically, the metronome makes it so that you do not have time to do things wrong.
One other thing:
When you are doing this, half of the session should be silent. What I do, is play it, then think it, then play it, then think it. You should be resting for however long it takes to actually play it, or a beat or two longer, so that you can finish any incomplete beat that you are actually playing. When I do this, my resting (actually thinking) time is measured. This is important. Do not give yourself all day to think about. Give yourself an exact amount of focus time in between playing. This will make you immerse yourself in the concentration that is necessary to work out problems.
Post Edited (2010-10-29 02:10)
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Author: CarlT
Date: 2010-10-29 20:53
Thanks Mr. Salzo.
I am confident You have given me some very good advice . Although I am skeptical that I will achieve the full suggested "88 BPM" referred to above, I certainly plan to follow the very thoughtful/helpful instructions you outlined.
In my opinion, your advice can only help my playing, not hurt it. I believe yours complements the other good advice given above by others. Although somewhat different, I think each approach will help in its own way, and I appreciate all of you for sharing your wisdom.
CarlT
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Author: claritoot26
Date: 2010-10-30 20:17
Carl T,
I think all of these suggestions can be helpful in their own way. I do have one thing to add. Although the metronome marking is a good guide, this book is geared towards improving musicianship. So, if you can do it at the correct tempo, but can't do all the dynamics and good phrasing that goes along with it to make it sound like a real piece of music, you've missed the point. And the etudes only get harder with the harder key signatures. For my students, I usually use this book after they've completed the intermediate or advanced book of Rubank Studies, so they have a good technical foundation and can then focus on the musical ideas rather than just technical issues. So, I guess I would suggest either doing this book slowly but musically, or switch to an easier book of etudes that you can play up to tempo, but focus on the musicianship rather than technical issues. Perhaps one of the Collis books (vol. 3 or 4). Or work up the scales section and then try the etudes later.
Lori
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Author: kdk
Date: 2010-10-31 15:40
Everyone's skirted around the issue of what really is a "correct" tempo for these (or any other) etudes. The ones Carl refers to are no doubt David Hite's preferred tempi, but that doesn't make his metronome markings sacrosanct. The point has been made that if playing a set of etudes at a musically defensible tempo is in general beyond a student, maybe they are not what the student needs at that point. But quarter=88 is not a requirement writ in heaven. Whether you start slowly and work up or follow Sal's plan and work to connect fragments in tempo, the tempo is flexible within reason.
Karl
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Author: stevesklar
Date: 2010-11-03 00:23
One unasked question that CarlT asked was .... how does one practice being able to tongue faster, and possibly play notes faster.
of course practice !! and scales will help you play notes faster
but with the tonguing issue, to be able to speed up I find several areas to practice
without the instrument practice tonguing to the back of your teeth. And of course try to speed up. This you can do any time as you don't need an instrument.
With the clarinet pick an easy note, say C below the staff and practice playing to a metronome, and of course, as you progress and become more stable at a speed speed up the metronome slightly. Just keep practicing this technique. Then you can evolve it to play 4 - quarter notes per note of a scale, up and down, then 8th notes, 16th, 32nds, etc per a fixed tempo. Then you can also increase the tempo. (ie, instead of one quarter note C then D, play 4 Cs then 4 Ds, etc as you move up and down the scale)
The key, is being a light on the reed and not a heavy "thwap" sound. The lighter you are the quicker you will be able to tongue. And with practice you will be able to play faster.
Good luck
==========
Stephen Sklar
My YouTube Channel of Clarinet Information
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