 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: sfalexi
Date: 2010-08-12 01:56
Just doing some thinking. I know a few people/companies have gone through some pains and lengths to create or "recreate" the same rubber formula which made the old chedeville mouthpieces so sought after.
Now if this rubber does produce such a great sound, what would happen if a clarinet were made of it? I know the vito reso-tone and Ridenour clarinets are hard rubber. And a few other companies are experimenting with different non-wood materials (took a look at Hanson's website today to see they have a new material out, as do the Leblanc/Backun BLISS clarinets).
And I thought, 'If this material is supposed to be the difference between a great sounding mouthpiece and a good sounding mouthpiece with the same facing, what would a whole clarinet sound like made out of this material......?'
Just doing some thinking......
Alexi
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Author: ddavani
Date: 2010-08-12 03:26
I've tried all of the Bliss models several times for Morrie Backun, I highly recommend it if you're looking to buy a composite/rubber clarinet, they are the best student clarinets I've ever seen. Morrie's a genius. If your looking for more information on the hard rubber clarinets, Tom wrote an article on it.
Here's the link:
www.ridenourclarinetproducts.com/grenadillamyth.htm
He makes a strong argument, however, I feel that you really can't beat the sound that grenadilla, cocobolo, and rosewood make. It's ultimately up to you, though the Bliss is a great clarinet.
I've been answering questions about Backun's clarinets, so if you have any further questions, send me an email.
-Dave Davani
http://allclarinet.blogspot.com/
Post Edited (2010-08-12 03:28)
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Author: L. Omar Henderson
Date: 2010-08-12 13:39
(I do not have a disclaimer since I am not selling Chedeville reproductions. Chedeville is now a registered trade mark of the GH Corp. however)
The current state of the rubber formulation used in some of the old Chedeville mouthpieces 1924-1943 (although this too varied) is in a state of decay. The Chedeville rubber has aged well for hard rubber but from the moment that latex is vulcanized into hard rubber the bonding, catalyzed by Sulfur, begins to breakdown and eventually looses structural integrity.
What we experience now from Chedeville rubber is a snapshot in its decay slope. This being said, a new hard rubber formulation mimicking the materials and vulcanizing and tempering routines, and acoustic properties of what we see now in Chedeville rubber can be made in a new more stable form.
L. Omar Henderson
www.doctorsprod.com
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2010-08-12 14:02
The old formulas of ebonite had a small percentage of lead in them, so would you want that too?
Vito Reso-tones aren't ebonite, they're resin as are Bundy Resonite. Earlier ones were in bakelite, but the more recent ones are in resin.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: L. Omar Henderson
Date: 2010-08-12 15:01
Most of us that have spent the time and money to recreate Chedeville rubber formulations are keeping the formulary and process proprietary.
Many of the newer clarinets are resin or other plastic such as ABS resin instruments rather than hard rubber which enables more economical ultrasonic welding of posts into the body. Possibly the most acoustically similar "plastic" material to Grenadilla wood is Delrin which is used in barrel applications.
L. Omar Henderson
www.doctorsprod.com
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Author: skygardener
Date: 2010-08-12 15:20
"The old formulas of ebonite had a small percentage of lead in them, so would you want that too?"
I thought they still have lead in today's mouthpieces, too.
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Author: MarlboroughMan
Date: 2010-08-12 15:32
I think the elephant in the room regarding the sound of clarinets these days is the general lack of properly aged, and perhaps not even properly selected, wood by clarinet mass-producers.
If the wood isn't treated/aged properly, sure, hard rubber might sound as good. But when you hold a properly resonating, well-seasoned and aged instrument in your hands, you can feel the difference as well as hear it.
Honestly, if you're not going to make an instrument properly (taking the time to age it, etc), why waste a precious commodity like African Blackwood? Better to use some other material--especially when they're being cranked out by the thousands, without much quality control.
******************************
The Jazz Clarinet
http://thejazzclarinet.blogspot.com/
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2010-08-12 15:33
>> I thought they still have lead in today's mouthpieces, too. <<
I don't know if they do or not, but I guess they lead you to believe it 
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Author: Alseg
Date: 2010-08-12 15:57
See next reply for pictures....I re-edited them for size constraints.
Below (next post) is a picture taken during the milling process of a barrel socket. The barrel is from a billet of Chedeville-style hard rubber. Note the brownish residue from hand-sanding (as you would find with mouthpiece refacing a similar material).
Milling Hard Rubber is different from milling wood.....I know...I have done it.
If you turn or mill a cylinder of hard rubber on a mandrel you must be certain that the procedure generates less heat than a similar process done on wood--otherwise, the ends will flare.
Yes, this goes for rubber that is formulated similar to that found in vintage mouthpieces.
Also--ventilation is crucial. The process is malodorous.
So, re-tooling and re-setting for making an instrument (or part of one) is a major undertaking.
Former creator of CUSTOM CLARINET TUNING BARRELS by DR. ALLAN SEGAL
-Where the Sound Matters Most(tm)-
Post Edited (2010-08-12 16:07)
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Author: Alseg
Date: 2010-08-12 16:08
Attachment: chedeville HR proto.barrel final AS.jpg (208k)
Here are the pictures, hopefully
Edit...I got the final pic to show, but the socket one is still in need of resize.
Thanks to GBK, the socket can now be seen in his post following this one.
Note the brown dust, common to work done on vintage type hard rubber mouthpieces. Believe me....it smells like sulfur and burning tires if you tool it too quickly.
Former creator of CUSTOM CLARINET TUNING BARRELS by DR. ALLAN SEGAL
-Where the Sound Matters Most(tm)-
Post Edited (2010-08-12 17:53)
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Author: Franklin Liao
Date: 2010-08-13 06:51
Dr. Omar Handerson's comment on Delrin is interesting, since Stephen Fox actually found his Delrin construction to sound wholly darker than his Grenadilla clarinet... in his own words:
"it was quite a shock to discover how radically different they are in character, to the player and even to the listener. The one made from blackwood feels and sounds brighter, with more incisive response; the one in Delrin feels and sounds stronger, darker and heavier, with less immediate response. Of course, one of each is not a large enough statistical sample to prove the point authoritatively, but it is enough to get one thinking, and to put to rest the simplistic “body material can’t possibly have any effect” assumption."
I am still thinking of getting a C clarinet made in Delrin actually.
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Author: L. Omar Henderson
Date: 2010-08-13 13:41
Perhaps Allan can comment on his experience with the sound of wooden barrels and Chedeville rubber barrels. Our experiences indicates a much more vibrant and "ringing" result with Chedeville rubber versus Grenadilla wood - but of course this is a subjective opinion on my part.
My own Power Barrels are made from Delrin but the acoustic design for increased sound and projection all but obliterates what a totally Delrin barrel might sound like.
L. Omar Henderson
www.doctorsprod.com
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Author: Alseg
Date: 2010-08-13 16:31
Shall the cat be out of the bag??
Ched. type rubber barrel is decidedly on the resonant side.
It is stable, attractive, colorful, and powerful.
Some dimensional issues were resolved, and are proprietary.
Disclaimer....I make barrels, but those of this material are not yet available for purchase. The source of the material ....enough said for now.
Former creator of CUSTOM CLARINET TUNING BARRELS by DR. ALLAN SEGAL
-Where the Sound Matters Most(tm)-
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Author: donald
Date: 2010-08-13 20:25
I suggested this (a barrel i mean) to Brad Behn about 4 years ago now and he wasn't interested. I think a hard rubber barrel is a good idea and look forward to trying these out.
There are obviously difficulties (that can be overcome) involved with making a hard rubber clarinet, but the main thing would seem to be that the material does not have the cosmetic endurance that other materials offers. Incidentally, a student of mine has been playing on a Chinese made rubber clarinet for two years. Despite a few (and surprisingly few) maintenance problems the instrument has a good tone and intonation. The material is now, unfortunately, suddenly deteriorating (there has been a gradual cosmetic deterioration, but now we see a structural weakening). As an example, the thumb rest has come out, but it's not just that the screw threads have gone, the screws came out of the instrument pulling away big chunks of the rubber????? Obviously a poor compound was used for this instrument.
dn
Post Edited (2010-08-13 22:34)
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Author: Barry Vincent
Date: 2010-08-14 06:40
Yes , nice fat ones , I have three of them. Matched up with a good mouthpiece they even make a well made plastic instrument sound good.
Skyfacer
Post Edited (2010-08-14 06:42)
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Author: donald
Date: 2010-08-14 09:00
but what was suggested here was barrels made from the rubber formulas created to duplicate the vintage mouthpieces...
I support the work that TR has done using Rubber compounds for clarinets and barrels, but note that the two Ridenour clarinets I see on a regular basis both have signs of cosmetic deterioration. This would surely discourage the production of top line instruments from this material (and explain why TRs enthusiasm is not widely shared).
dn
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Author: Franklin Liao
Date: 2010-08-14 09:34
I thought the dye seeping out is the reason why the clarinets made with ebonite can turn green as the natural color of the thing should be white...
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Author: Barry Vincent
Date: 2010-08-14 12:48
Apparently Ebonite is OK just so long as you don't expose it to too much sunlight which seems to 'activate' the sulphur in the compound. The sulphur is also the reason that you can't have silver plated keys anywhere near Ebonite as some sort of catalytic reaction causes the silver to turn black with AgS
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Author: justme
Date: 2010-08-14 13:25
There's an article about molded rubber versus rod rubber on the Fobes blog site that may be of interest to you.
I guess it was written in Oct. 2008.
The blog was written by Clark W Fobes:
http://clarkwfobes.wordpress.com/
Justme
"A critic is like a eunuch: he knows exactly how it ought to be done."
CLARINET, n.
An instrument of torture operated by a person with cotton in his ears. There are two instruments that are worse than a clarinet -- two clarinets
Post Edited (2010-08-14 13:47)
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Author: L. Omar Henderson
Date: 2010-08-14 22:24
Very interesting and insightful blog by Clark. He is one of the premier mouthpiece makers, IMHO, today. I also feel that design trumps material but Clark's comparison of Selmer versus other molded mouthpieces neglects the fact that the present rod rubber formulation (I know where it comes from and its composition) is not similar to the old Chedeville rod rubber in compostion or production process.
Disclaimer - I have a recreation of Chedeville rubber and own the Chedeville trademark and word mark.
L. Omar Henderson
www.doctorsprod.com
Another complexity - molded mouthpieces - all - must be subsequently vulcanized by heat and pressure and the uneven cooling because of thickness differences in various parts of the mouthpiece induce torsion and warping in all molded mouthpieces. These effects are moderated by the makers tools but most would agree that every mouthpiece plays and sounds a little differently. Rod rubber, at least per batch, has even crosslinking and structure which is then cut into mouthpiece form - later adjusted by a maker.
Post Edited (2010-08-14 22:39)
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Author: jasperbay
Date: 2010-08-15 17:02
Very interesting thread. My two cents worth of experience from the half-dozen hard rubber clarinets in my collection ranging from 50-100yrs. old:
(a) The 'half-life' of hard rubber decay must be very long, as I notice little or no cosmetic or structural degradation in the 50 yr. old horns, and only a slight surface discoloration on the older ones. This surface greening can be polished off with a little rubbing compound, and a little Armorall will, I suspect, go a long ways towards halting the aging process, which I believe is caused mainly by sunlight exposure over the years. I see no reason hard rubber clarinets can not give grenadilla wood clarinets a good run for their money in the longevity department. I hope someone will be playing mine a century from now!
(b) I agree with others in this thread that hard rubber gives a slightly more 'resonant' tone than your average grenadilla wood, but good aged wood of high density sounds to my ear nearly identical. I have a pair of "Sherwood" clarinets from the 1950's , one nice grenadilla, one hard rubber. Keywork and pads are identical, and with the same Vandoren mpc., they also sound identical. Different mouthpieces alter their character considerably, however, pointing out yet again that the mouthpiece is more important than all other factors combined!
Clark G. Sherwood
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