 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: karlbonner82
Date: 2010-05-16 09:18
We've had this discussion already but thought I'd add a touch more food for thought.
As of now, my opinion is this: I'm probably going to want at least one horn that is pitched in a non-flat key. It's not too likely that I'll end up playing in an orchestra any time soon, but I'll probably be playing in keys like G, D and A at least somewhat frequently. The Bb/A pair might still be a smart way to go IMHO, though a Bb/C combo sounds like it could cover the field without too much trouble, since most orchestral trumpeters stick to C trumpets for non-flat keys. Trumpets in A are very rare and the D doesn't seem that common either.
The C clarinet is in a middle position key-wise but also pitch-wise. It can't handle the really high ranges as well as the eefer, but its tone is not as mellow as the Bb or A. So I'm a bit skeptical about choosing a C as my non-flat specimen.
It's actually a shame that the F sopranino isn't very popular. I'd think it would make more sense than Eb due to the F's more centered position on the circle of fifths.
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Author: SteveG_CT
Date: 2010-05-16 18:14
I don't know that I've ever heard of a F sopranino. The only sopranino clarinets I have ever seen were keyed to high Ab. From what I understand the reason they aren't popular is because they are very difficult to play and control due to the small size.
I'm not sure why you are so concerned about having a clarinet of a different key. I personally wouldn't want to buy an instrument in a key for which there wasn't any music written. Having to transpose a piece every now and again is a big enough pain so I certainly wouldn't want to have to transpose all of the time due to having an oddball instrument.
The only non-flat keyed clarinet I would even consider buying would be an A clarinet and then only if I were in an orchestra and would be playing music that required it. Since you stated that you don't want to play in an orchestra I'd suggest you look for either an Eb soprano or a Bb bass to supplement your regular Bb soprano.
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Author: SteveG_CT
Date: 2010-05-16 18:49
I suspect there are probably a few incarnations out there for special purposes. It would be interesting to know what the sales numbers are like for those instruments. I suspect that they are basically handled like a custom order with only a few instruments selling every couple of years
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Author: karlbonner82
Date: 2010-05-17 01:00
I'll probably be playing a lot of non clarinet music and that means I'll be seeing plenty of sharp keys. So either a C or A is in order - question is, which?
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Author: Ralph Katz
Date: 2010-05-17 01:11
For orchestras, the A makes the most sense.
For ethnic or folk musician, then the C makes more sense.
If you want something obtainable that few if any other clarinetists have, then get an Ab.
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Author: trice035
Date: 2010-05-17 02:49
Karl,
I think you are misunderstanding something. The family of clarinets does not exist to allow players to avoid playing in certain keys. It is so that composers have a full range of voices to work with. Having a C or A clarinet around won't help your playing and won't make the literature more accessible to you. On the other hand, learning to do everything in every key will. Good players work hard to master every key. So, when one learns major and minor scales, one should strive to learn them all. Playing exercises in thirds, sixths? Do them in all keys. For example, my daily warm-up includes major and minor scales and chords in all keys. This help maintain my mental and muscle knowledge of them. If you end up playing in a wind band or orchestra and need to play music written for an A clarinet, you can worry about getting one then. Doing it before then is a waste of energy and money.
My thinking is that time spend obsessing over equipment is time spent not practicing. Practicing is all that matters. You might consider spending the next couple of years doing nothing but compulsively practicing one Bb clarinet.
I hope this is helpful,
Tom
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Author: tdinap
Date: 2010-05-17 02:56
I don't think you're approaching this the right way--if you're willing to transpose so much, why not just get really good at playing in all keys and stick with just a Bb clarinet?
The main reason I see for having any of these clarinets is that they're called for in a score, and you're unlikely to have any control over when that happens for most of your clarinet-playing life. And if you're not doing it because the score says so, I'd like to know who in their right mind would transpose the first movement of Beethoven's 5th symphony onto C clarinet just because the piece is in C (poor example, I know, but the point is the same).
Obviously it's sometimes easier (or even necessary!) to transpose a passage because it lies better on a different clarinet, but that shouldn't be your primary motivation for buying one. And if you're really so torn about which to buy, something tells me you probably don't need any specific one badly enough to bother spending all that money anyway.
To be a bit more useful, though I'd answer your original question this way: it seems to me that for "classical" playing, all clarinetists are pretty much expected to own both A and Bb clarinets, and all other instruments are basically optional, to be used for doubling or the performer's convenience. If you're not playing classical music, most people would expect you to own a Bb, and other than that, it'd be totally personal preference.
Tom
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Author: karlbonner82
Date: 2010-05-17 16:08
Fingerings are not the only issue at stake here, folks. It's also the case that at least some clarinets don't seem to have very good intonation or timbral quality when played in oblique keys, and attack/response can also be an issue at times. Now it may be the case that a _good_ and _advanced_ Bb model can play the awkward keys a lot more easily without sounding 'hard' and/or out of tune. If that were the case, a different clarinet key might not be so important.
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Author: Tobin
Date: 2010-05-17 17:04
"It's also the case that at least some clarinets don't seem to have very good intonation or timbral quality when played in oblique keys, and attack/response can also be an issue at times."
If the clarinet is a quality instrument then this should be a non-issue. This does not automatically mean professional top tier, as there are fine student instruments available.
"Now it may be the case that a _good_ and _advanced_ Bb model can play the awkward keys a lot more easily without sounding 'hard' and/or out of tune."
The theory behind this statement is incorrect. If you're worried about whether the audience can determine that the key a performer is in is "hard" then that is a measure of how unfamiliar the performer is with the piece. If you have learned the piece well (even in hardest keys) the audience will not know you're in a tough key (unless they have perfect pitch!).
A key with more sharps or flats should not be inherently more out of tune than you're C major scale.
Now if you're using a sub-par instrument, you've obviously brought a knife to a gun fight.
James
Gnothi Seauton
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Author: RoBass
Date: 2010-05-18 11:54
Hmmh, it seems to be a more theoretical question than a demand borne...
If you wanna play in a symphonic orchestra, please use the standard set Bb + A. If you wanna fight in a street gang with jazzers and many folk music - an additional C could be a good choice. But please forget the posted mind about "bad intonation"! For every base tune the intonation could be bad if the player is, and could be good in a mouth of a pro...
I know a lot of professional musicians, and only a few of them owns a clarinet set with A- and Es-model. And they only use this for difficult pieces in symphonic workscope - written especially for this instrument tune ;-)
If you only want to play every kind of music - please learn the scales as well as possible! No one plays better on a different instrument only from the material... ;-/
As I stated before: It looks to be academic (for me;-).
kindly
Roman
Post Edited (2010-05-18 11:55)
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Author: ColeHanson
Date: 2010-05-18 15:46
Get an A.
Way more useful for mainstream playing, much more common, much more accepted. You can always transpose c parts on b- flat.
Do it.
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Author: karlbonner82
Date: 2010-05-20 16:39
I'm gravitating toward this answer now:
Get the Eb first. For now the high soprano voice is more important than easy fingering for (concert) keys such as D and A. If intermediate flutes and oboes in school concert bands can handle four flats on a regular basis and five flats for the occasional Db or Bb-minor composition, I ought to have no problem playing equally ornate passages with four or five nominal ("written") sharps. I'm also pretty sure that there are a lot of popular tunes where alto saxes have to wade through a swamp of sharps.
After I have at least the eefer - and maybe my advanced wood beefer - then I'll be able to address the C vs A dilemma. Thankfully that still looks to be a couple years away at the minimum.
In the long run I'll probably end up with a collection like this:
Bb concert clarinet - something at the top end of the intermediate market or MAYBE one of the cheapo pro models. Complete with rubber mouthpiece and a box of Vandoren V12 reeds, likely 3.5 but just maybe a 4.
Eb high soprano - a top-end plastic/resonite/rubber/etc. horn - or perhaps an economical wood one if good and affordable. Will not aim nearly as high on the food chain as I will for the Bb concert though.
Keep the plastic student clarinet I have now, UNLESS I find it worthwhile to either get some tune ups on it for go for a better plastic specimen.
Either C or A, but not both.
Perhaps bass clarinet? If so aim quite cheap. Find out if the low C and D are really that important....
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Author: EEBaum
Date: 2010-05-20 19:28
I still don't quite see why you're finding it necessary to buy random clarinets at the moment, ESPECIALLY something like a low-end Eb clarinet.
-Alex
www.mostlydifferent.com
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Author: Tobin
Date: 2010-05-20 19:32
I'm with Alex. From your writing it sounds as if you're buying in anticipation of a need you don't currently have.
You don't need an Eb or A unless you have an orchestra available to join. You don't need a C until you're ready to gig in less-standardized ensembles. Perhaps you have both of those opportunities, but that isn't clear from your posts.
You should invest in the best Bb that you can afford to own.
James
Gnothi Seauton
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Author: karlbonner82
Date: 2010-05-21 16:13
Not quite that trice035. Obsessive futuristic fantasy syndrome is probably a better explanation. It's not just with clarinet that I can come down with OFFS - everything from astronomy/telescopes, education, homeownership, gardening, just about any hobby or vocation that I'm really interested in, I can get ahead of myself and fantasize about the distant future.
One thing I've found that helps with my OFFS is to find ways to mentally connect today's tasks to tomorrow's destination. The journey is supposed to be as enjoyable as the destination if not more so.
The fact is that I never intend to do anything musical for a living. The kind of drudgery needed for that would ruin the fun as far as I'm concerned. At the same time, playing in a community concert band that does a lot of conventional repertoire (Sousa marches, stand-alone "overtures," etc.) would make me feel VERY bored. Especially if we play nothing but holiday-themed music for six or seven weeks straight at the end of each calendar year...that's by far the worst. The repertoire MUST be well above the stuff that a small-town high school band would typically do, both in terms of difficulty and in terms of artistry/eclecticness.
========
Anyway, back to the topic at hand. I'm not going to argue with anyone saying that I'm getting way ahead of myself with these posts about multiple clarinet sizes. The short-term concern is in fact boning up on my skills with the Bb, then finding ways to put my skills to avocational use. If I ever do get an A it would be waaaayyyy down the road. I could see the C coming into utility some time sooner than an A ever would. But even then I'd have to already be committed to plenty of informal gigs, otherwise it wouldn't be worth the cost.
Now I definitely DO want to eventually get an Eb and/or a bass for the same reason most recorder players own instruments of several sizes. Being able to cover all the voices from top to bottom is important to me though it might not be as important to you. I think the reason, oddly enough, is that I don't plan to limit myself to band repertoire or anything else where the clarinet's role is quite sharply defined. In smaller ensembles or non-classical settings you need to be more versatile, and adding an extra size either up or down is an excellent way to do so.
The only thing that might not be so clear has to do with the Bb upgrade. If my first Bb was already quite good in the absolute sense, it would be easier to justify going to the Eb next. But in this case I suspect the upgrade will probably take priority over the Eb.
That's my story.
==============
BTW, my biggest trepidation with the eefer is the fact that it has three flats "built in" to the instrument. I've always been puzzled as to why Eb clarinets and saxes are common but Fs are very rare. I can forgive the two flats of the Bb but three just seems somehow silly.
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Author: EEBaum
Date: 2010-05-21 16:51
I can see where you're coming from on that. I think what a lot of people here are getting at is that you probably will get little mileage out of buying an instrument solely for purposes of key navigation, especially if the parts aren't already written for an instrument in that key.
You can play non-"clarinet repertoire" on a Bb just as well as an Eb or a D or a C or a G or A sopranino or a basset horn or an alto or a bass or a bass in A or a contraalto or a contrabass or an octocontrabass if you can coax it away from Mr. LeBlanc. The range of the instrument is more important than the key. If you're looking for more variety in that regard, I'd say to get a bass. In my experience, it's a great instrument to attach to an amplifier with a distortion pedal.
As to why Eb and not F or any other key, it's more or less a matter of "that's the way things are." Stuff used to be written for clarinet in D. Since there's not a huge benefit of a D clarinet over an Eb, since there was very little rep for it, since the parts can be played just as well on an Eb, and since instruments cost money to buy, space to store, and effort to schlep, it was gradually phased out (though still produced in small numbers... friend of mine has one). There was enough written for A that it stuck around with the Bb as companion, and since they're far apart on the circle of 5ths, they do greatly assist in key navigation.
-Alex
www.mostlydifferent.com
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Author: karlbonner82
Date: 2010-05-22 15:45
I heard someone tell me once that with saxophones, F-altos sound lousy for whatever reason. That may have pushed them toward Eb instead. Once established, QWERTY syndrome took over.
Trouble is that once you hit Eb you pretty much are stuck with the flat-noted keys - MAYBE G or D if you're at a fairly high level of proficiency. But I remember my band director saying that the key of G sounds nasty even if everyone can get all the sharps. Is there a way to make G-major sound good in a wind ensemble - or is this a key better left to strings and small horn sections in rock/funk/pop/whatever bands.
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Author: EEBaum
Date: 2010-05-22 15:57
That's totally bogus.
First off, G and D are not flat-noted keys. Play something in concert Ab on a clarinet, THEN come back to complain.
A good wind ensemble shouldn't have trouble with G, or with any key for that matter. Heck, G is one sharp for most players, one flat for clarinets, two flats for Eb instruments. Walk in the park.
-Alex
www.mostlydifferent.com
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Author: Tobin
Date: 2010-05-22 16:32
Karl,
"Trouble is that once you hit Eb you pretty much are stuck with the flat-noted keys - MAYBE G or D if you're at a fairly high level of proficiency."
Why? Where have you seen this born out? What pieces are you speaking of?
You are operating under a set of premises (founded by earlier teachers) that are constantly being refuted here. I would kindly suggest that they are skewing your perception of things!
If a good wind ensemble is playing in E major, the audience isn't going to know it's a tough key!!!!!
James
Gnothi Seauton
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Author: karlbonner82
Date: 2010-05-23 09:56
I do wonder why some school band directors are complaining about the key of G major, then? For a Bb instrument it should be no harder to finger than the key of Db, and much easier for all the C and F instruments.
Please try to understand that a lot of the statements you are refuting are ones that I was doubtful about to begin with, especially the G major band issue.
Maybe there's something about the key of Db that makes it easier to voice the various band instruments in appropriate registers, while with G you either have to aim high or aim low and the pitch voicing doesn't sound as good. I recall that beginning F-horn players have that dilemma, since most band students start off with the Bb concert scale but the horns have to either play high or low since neither octave is in the ideal beginning register.
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2010-05-23 11:03
...just because a piece is written in G Major (or whatever other key) doesn't mean you necessarily will see all those notes.
The majority of the pieces I encounter are written in concert key of xyz and remain so even on the transposed clarinet parts, just with a sh*tload of accidentals in front of every third note. (Lazy arranger syndrome?) Or a piece typeset in G Major that don't have a single F# in the whole piece.
What counts is what notes you have to play, not what key the piece is written in. Transposed parts can be treacherous. And not all styles of music use a plain major scale - Blues, Klezmer, ....
--
Ben
Post Edited (2010-05-23 13:56)
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Author: Tobin
Date: 2010-05-23 13:47
Hi Karl,
I've never heard a director complain specifically about any key. They may complain that the key of a piece they've selected is causing their kids trouble, but not that they didn't choose a piece because it had a certain key in it.
A local high school did The Cowboys arrangement in it that has that ridiculous section in the middle with 5 or 6 sharps. Was it brutal to learn? Yes. That didn't stop the piece from being programmed.
James
Gnothi Seauton
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Author: EEBaum
Date: 2010-05-23 15:41
If you can't use a given key because of voicing issues, you're a pretty sh***y composer.
Dunno why I bleeped out "shoddy," but I do maintain that there are a LOT of shoddy writers of band literature.
I also think maybe some band directors try to place the blame in an area they can't control (e.g. the key of a piece) to avoid fixing problems they CAN control, and maybe just don't know how to, whether intentionally or not. You CAN make 10 wind band clarinets play perfectly in tune, for example, but it's hard, it may take some time, and it involves more than carelessly waving your stick at them while shouting "play in tune!" I've seen it done in clinics where a director demonstrates with an ensemble exactly how to do it, step by step, and the directors in the audience do nothing but whine afterwards that it doesn't work for THEIR ensemble.
Complaining is easier than fixing, and people don't like considering the possibility that they're wrong.
-Alex
www.mostlydifferent.com
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Author: davetrow
Date: 2010-05-23 16:29
I've never heard our director complain about the key a piece is written in, but he often comments on concert D as being a note that's difficult to make sound good in a wind ensemble. I have no idea why, but he's an excellent director with 40+ years of experience, and an exhaustive knowledge of the idiosyncrasies of various instruments, so I have to suppose he knows what he's talking about.
If I remember, I'll ask at the next rehearsal.
Dave Trowbridge
Boulder Creek, CA
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Author: Ursa
Date: 2010-05-23 18:13
With Bb brass instruments, the written bottom-line E (concert D) tends to be sharp, while the top-space E blows flat. With less-than-accomplished players, playing this note in unison is a tuning train wreck.
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Author: tdinap
Date: 2010-05-23 19:58
Along the same lines, I've always found concert C to be a difficult key to play in, at least with non-professional wind bands, since important pitches in that key often tend in opposite directions for different instruments--for example, "third space" concert C is a nightmare to tune between the sharp clarinets and flat trumpets. I've found this kind of thing has much less to do with the key signature than the physical limitations of various instruments, and that's something that should be worked on by the players until it's not a problem anymore (and isn't totally solvable just by getting an instrument in a different key!).
Tom
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