 The Clarinet BBoard
|
Author: karlbonner82
Date: 2010-05-16 09:08
Let's suppose you are forming a prestigious wind ensemble and it is decided that there are going to be about 80-90 members. What would you consider to be the ideal size for your clarinet section, and how many musicians would you assign to each of the different parts (e.g. first sopranos, second sopranos, third sopranos, altos, basses, contralto/contrabass)?
Given that for years I've viewed clarinets (for right or wrong) as the "backbone" of the wind symphony, I'd be inclined to say around 30 total, probably 20-22 of which would be sopranos and about twice as many basses as altos. If you had enough bassoons (four perhaps?), low saxes and euphoniums, perhaps you could cut out a couple of the bass clarinets, otherwise I'd guess about six basses although I'm no authority on this!
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Bassie
Date: 2010-05-16 11:39
Man, that's a big ensemble.
Personally I don't like to see too many clarinets on each part; they fight, especially when the pitch is high. It's worth bearing in mind also the relative volumes of the various instruments (difficult to be absolute, I know). In much of its range the soprano clarinet is quite a powerful beast.
Maybe I'd even halve your number: Eb, 1st, 2nd, 3rd, Alto, Bass, 2-3 on each. But it depends what else you're going to have. You mention euphoniums. What brass/wood split do you envisage?
As far as recruitment goes you'll always get millions of sop clarinets and flutes... worth bearing this in mind. This is often the reason why when you see an amateur concert band it's all clarinets.
EDIT: Okay, I've had a think about the numbers... maybe I'd bulk out the lower sop clarinet parts a bit on what I've said, which probably pushes us over twenty. But I'd be looking for quite a bit of double reed to colour in such a big group myself. (Man, wouldn't half-a-dozen bassoons be cool...)
And you only need one picc
Post Edited (2010-05-16 12:02)
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: karlbonner82
Date: 2010-05-16 12:24
Re the brass/wood split. Brasses are loud and heavy so I'd probably have them comprise only about 1/3 of the ensemble, perhaps even a wee bit lower. (what would your brass/wood ratio be?) In particular I'd steer clear of gigantic trumpet sections - at most three per part and probably only two.
Actually, I might scale back the size of the ensemble a bit. Let's say 60-70 members instead. Saxes and double reeds might add up to 12 and flutes, maybe 8. After about 20 brasses and 20 non-clarinet woods, that would leave us room for about 20-25 clarinets - about one-third of the ensemble...
Not sure how many bassoons you need in a band of that size in order for their tone color to make a noticeable contribution to the blend, and equally unsure for oboes. I do know that two oboes is usually not enough to stand up to 8-10 flutes and 12-15 sop. clarinets! The only time you seem to hear them is when at least half of the high woodwinds are silent. Maybe four would do the trick?
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: justme
Date: 2010-05-16 13:18
How about this crazy combination...
20-30 Sop Clarinets
1 Eb Clarinet
2 Bass Clarinets
10 Saxophones total, including, Sop, Alto,Tenor, Baritone
10 Flutes
1 Piccolo
6 oboes
2 EH
4 Bassoons
3 Trumpets
2 Trombones
1-2 French Horns
1 Tuba
1 Drummer
1 Kettle Drummer ( Timpani)
1 percussionist that plays other instruments besides drums, such as various bells, etc.
1 Piano
10 Violins
2 Violas
2 Cellos
1 Bass
I can dream can't I?...
![[grin]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/smilie5.gif)
Justme
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: karlbonner82
Date: 2010-05-16 13:43
That looks way too top-heavy IMNSHO. And 8 brass vs about 50 woods?!?
Well I shouldn't be surprised. My old concert band had about 8 or 9 trumpets but only one each of trombone, euph and tuba when I was in 9th grade. Then a bari sax, one tenor sax, one bass clarinet - and everything else was flutes, clarinets and alto sax. I'm amazed we sounded as good as we did!
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Lelia Loban ★2017
Date: 2010-05-16 14:14
There's excellent information on this subject in Nikolay Rimsky-Korsakov, "Principles of Orchestration." Since 1964, Dover has offered an unabridged, corrected version of the 1922 Edition Russe de Musique publication in paperback (the original two volumes bound as one; the second volume consists of examples from Rimsky's music), edited by Maximilian Steinberg and translated into English from Russian by Edward Agate. I think it's the best book on orchestration by far, a must-have for anybody who writes music or wants to put together a well-balanced ensemble.
Rimsky gives clear, detailed reasons for his recommendations. He explains why certain instruments may sound out of tune when playing in unison, for instance. He explains how to avoid over-balancing an ensemble with too many of one kind of instrument that will drown out others. For a symphony orchestra, for example, he suggests basic woodwinds grouped in pairs, threes or fours depending on the number of stringed and brass instruments. If the woodwinds are grouped in fours for a big orchestra, he suggests this balance (table on p. 13):
1 piccolo
3 flutes (3rd may be a bass flute)
3 oboes
1 English horn
3 clarinets (1 may be Eb sop.)
1 bass clarinet
3 bassoons
1 double bassoon [i.e. contra-bassoon]
Similar charts show how to balance the brasses, strings, percussion and voices. He gives advice on adding other instruments to the basic groups for special effects. Other tables show the instruments' pitch ranges. He provides good advice on how to avoid writing music that's impossible to play well (by making a trombone player jump back and forth between first and seventh position in a presto passage, for instance).
Lelia
http://www.scoreexchange.com/profiles/Lelia_Loban
To hear the audio, click on the "Scorch Plug-In" box above the score.
Post Edited (2010-05-16 14:21)
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: justme
Date: 2010-05-16 14:21
Don't forget one thing though, the brass sound penetrates and carries. The sound of oboes penetrates and carries as well ( but not as lound as the brass.)
That's why I limited the brass as I figure it will carry over.
A very long time ago in a band that I won't go into, there was about 25 clarinets along with other various instruments as well, and only 2 trumpets, 1 french horn, 2 trombones and 1 tuba for the brass.
Whether in the room, the concert that we performed, or even on the recording the brass were always heard with no problem.
Justme
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: justme
Date: 2010-05-16 14:25
Of course we're talking about band and not orchestra, primarily a wind band as I understood it ( I couldn't help to add a few strings though)...
Take Care
Justme
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2010-05-16 17:14
Ok, who knows the instrumentation of the 120 piece Northshore Concert Band of Evanston IL?
......................Paul Aviles
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: ColeHanson
Date: 2010-05-16 17:44
If you want a functional "presitigious wind ensemble," you would have maybe 45-50 members, with
1 Eflat
6-8 Bb's at the very most, although often times, these parts are literally all done one player/part written.
1 Alto (but only if it was necessary and called for, many times the alto part is left out if it is only doubling or totally unnecessary)
some combination of 1-3 bass/contras depending on the music.
Going with 80-90 players, you would basically double the section, although that band is not a wind ensemble, it is a symphonic or concert band. I can't imagine more than 18 Bb clarinets even functioning together much less blending as a section.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Wes
Date: 2010-05-16 19:55
The 75 piece LAPD Concert Band is Los Angeles is the "official band of the city of Los Angeles" and it's clarinets are as follows:
1 Eb
12 Bb
1 Eb Alto
2 Bb Basses
1 Eb Contra Alto
The 12 trumpets are not too loud as their volume is controlled and they are a joy to hear. The six flutes are a little light but it depends upon who is playing and the horns sound best when all four or five are there, but are not too loud.
Many of the clarinetists play Buffets but most use the factory supplied barrels, bells, etc. although I used a 65 Moennig barrel on my previous 1971 clarinet.
The two oboes and two bassoons look good but are usually covered up by the rest of the band and it may be just as well as good double reed players seem to be generally happier playing in an orchestra. That's why many band oboe solos are qued in other parts.
Next month, the band plays in Kennedy Center in Washington and, in July, plays at the Reagan Library for the nth time.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: cigleris
Date: 2010-05-16 21:01
The best sound one can get out of a large wind ensemble is one on a part. This enables everybody to be heard and to blend. On the odd occasion the parts split like in the clarinets or trumpets then 2 per part but no more. Wind bands get a bad rap because they are noisy, have no real tone colour etc. This is not true. The modern day wind band grew up from the the wind harmonie from the late 18th Century and I feel that the modern band should be treated in this way. Chamber music on a bigger scale.
Peter Cigleris
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Caroline Smale
Date: 2010-05-16 21:58
Looking back over some of the most prestigious British military bands in earlier years it seems that the clarinet section typically accounted for between 25 - 30% of the total band.
Even in the regimental/line bands there always seem to be a generous quantity of clarinets.
Of course this was in the days when a mainstay of the repertoire was orchestral transcriptions and the clarinets really did have to mimic the strings.
I have a picture of the "BBC Wireless Military Band" in front of me conducted by B Walton O'Donnell in the 1930s.
This group represented perhaps the peak of orchestral transcription performance, many made by O'Donnell himself.
The line up is
2 Flute/Picc
2 Oboe
2 Eb Clar
9 Bb clar
1 Alto Sax
1 Tenor Sax
2 Bassoon
4 Horns
5 cornet (some double tpt)
3 trombone
1 Euph (baritone)
1 Eb bass
1 Bb bass
1 string bass
2 tymp/perc.
The quality of their playing is outstanding even by todays standards.
I certainly think that the sound of 2 or more clarinets in unison is quite different, and deliberately so, from the solo sound (even when intonation is spot on!) and so it's probably incorrect to try and compare the serenade type ensemble to a full blown symphonic band.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: clarinetguy ★2017
Date: 2010-05-17 01:46
Perhaps we should distinguish between the concert/symphonic band and the wind ensemble. The traditional wind ensemble, as conceived by Frederick Fennell, has a total membership of about 50. For the most part there is only one person on a part, although many wind ensembles (including the Eastman Wind Ensemble) have two clarinets on a part. In contrast, the traditional concert/symphonic band is much larger. In some of the great university symphonic bands of the past, I don't think it was unusual to have 20 or more B-flat soprano clarinets.
At one time, the number of saxophones in concert bands was limited. I think it's fair to say that many of the great university band directors of the past didn't care for saxophones (someone please correct me if I'm wrong). They'd use the absolute minimum of two altos, a tenor, and a bari, while they'd make sure to have four or five times as many soprano clarinets. Today, it seems as if saxophone sections are expanding while clarinet sections are shrinking.
To answer your question: For an 80 piece band, assuming that there is balanced instrumentation in the band, I'd say about 17 or 18 B-flat soprano clarinets, two basses, and perhaps a contra alto. How the parts are distributed depends on the skill levels of the players. If they're all very strong players, I'd have 4 or 5 on the first part, 6 or 7 on second, and an equal number on third. If you have a limited number of very strong players, I'd have a smaller number on first and more on second and third.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: karlbonner82
Date: 2010-05-17 08:26
Sorry about the name confusion; by "wind ensemble" I actually meant a symphonic band.
Brasses are heavy so I can understand the total section being much smaller than the woodwind section - but only 10% of the band??? That just sounds plain ridiculous.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Lelia Loban ★2017
Date: 2010-05-17 12:46
The conductor may not have control over the makeup of the ensemble, but on occasion must be willing to tell some groups to sing out while others (trumpets...) should stifle themselves. Ideally, a good conductor will try to arrange to do a sound test rehearsal in the performance hall before the performance. Either the conductor or an assistant will wander around the hall to see how the sound of the various instruments carries and balances in that particular room. As all pipe organists know, the room is part of the organ. Same for a band or an orchestra. Sound checks aren't perfect, because adding the audience (all those big soft bodies) muffles and quiets the sound, but the sound check can give a good idea of whether the balance of instruments is right -- and it can be very different in that room than in the regular rehearsal room. If the trumpets overwhelm everything else in the sound check rehearsal, then they'll do it in the fully-attended concert, too.
Lelia
http://www.scoreexchange.com/profiles/Lelia_Loban
To hear the audio, click on the "Scorch Plug-In" box above the score.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: JamesOrlandoGarcia
Date: 2010-05-18 18:05
I really believe in a bottom heavy clarinet section. The Wheaton Municipal Band under the direction of Bruce Moss has a section of 1Eb, 4 Firsts, 6 Seconds, 8 Thirds and four bass clarinets. It really balances out the whole concert band and keeps intonation in check for the most part. I know there are a lot of people who can belt out a first clarinet part with great zeal but it isn't so great if you don't have sufficient lower parts.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
The Clarinet Pages
|
 |
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
