 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Arnoldstang
Date: 2010-05-14 17:22
Great playing with lots of colour, character and taste. The group is "Rockin"
Freelance woodwind performer
Post Edited (2010-05-14 17:23)
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Author: justme
Date: 2010-05-15 02:43
Thanks for posting this.
Ahhh Dixieland, that's what I call jamming!
Hooray for the metal clarinet as well!
Justme
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Author: gigaday
Date: 2010-05-15 08:07
His name is Acker Bilk, as it happens.
Nice little bit of playing, he is a very proficient New Orleans style player although he made is money from some rather schmaltzy but very popular hit tunes.
One thing I notice is that these jazz clarinetists mostly seem to hold the instrument much more horizontal than classical players. Any reason why? does anyone know?
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Author: ned
Date: 2010-05-15 13:33
gigaday asks: ''One thing I notice is that these jazz clarinetists mostly seem to hold the instrument much more horizontal than classical players. Any reason why? does anyone know?''
My experience as a jazz player has been that when learning the instrument one held it in such a position as to be able to see the keys. Given that a good many jazz players are self taught and play by ear, initially it was necessary to ''see where you were going'' and to learn the fingering by rote.
The playing position adopted thereby, becomes the norm unless taught otherwise.
I always felt that the classical players' playing position looked a trifle awkward, but I find that over the years, my own playing position has dropped considerably. It's far more comfortable for the arms and I rarely need to look at the keys - it's impossible to do so with one's eyes shut in any event.
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Author: BobD
Date: 2010-05-15 14:57
It's called projection. Thanks William. Also check out "The Shiek of Araby" in the same listing, and coming from Hungary, no less. Fabulous.
Bob Draznik
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Author: interd0g
Date: 2010-05-15 15:00
I knew Acker and played with several of his henchmen back then.
They were a little wild.
The horizontal stance allows any beer dribbled into the instrument to return to the consumer.
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Author: Iceland clarinet
Date: 2010-05-15 18:25
Oh boy once again the Acker Bilk school of clarinet playing is praised. Heard tons of jazz clarinet players play better than this. Please this is a clarinet not a saxophone.
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Author: ned
Date: 2010-05-16 06:49
Iceland clarinet, your opinion of Acker Bilk is well known, however, if you have anything positive to add that would be good.
You also, I believe from reading some of your other postings, profess to know little or nothing about jazz, so I suspect you'd not approve of the many jazz players who possess a ''saxophone'' tone.
As pointed out by many of our fellow correspondents to this BB, there is no ideal clarinet tone, all are equal.
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Author: gigaday
Date: 2010-05-16 07:46
I was recently coming home from a gig in my friend's car, he his a professional mainstream jazz trombonist, and I said that I thought that Acker was well over-rated; I mentioned his hit records White Cliffs of Dover and Stranger on the Shore, neither of which I had thought much of at the time they were hits.
My friend replied that those songs had made Acker a rich man but they were not typical of his music which, he said, was in the true New Orleans tradition and that Acker is a "National Treasure".
He loaned me a CD of Acker's best and I heard what he was talking about; it's great fun music played in the style and with the type of tone that is traditional to New Orleans Jazz. I have always loved New Orleans Jazz and the sound of those old players is very stirring - Barney Bigard, Johnny Dodds, Sidney Bechet, Alphonse Picou, Peter Schilperoort of Dutch Swing College Band, et alia.
This clip of Picou makes me smile:-
http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x1ec9p_high-society-picou_music
It was these early jazz musicians that lead me to Benny Goodman and then on to classical clarinet and I still love all those styles.
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Author: Danny Boy
Date: 2010-05-16 13:17
From the video...
"Kids have no idea how the clarinet should sound"
"Teaching them what should be done"
"What is characteristic of the clarinet sound"
The point that was being made is - I feel - that there is no one clarinet sound.
"I would have the whole clarinet section producing a beautifully centered clarinet sound" - hmmm, if all my students played in the same way, what's the point. We're not programming, we're teaching.
In the video - Mr Ridenour describes the 'Acker Bilk School' (his example doesn't sound anything like Acker Bilk) of playing as fuzzy, as if that is automatically a bad thing. I wonder why he decided to label it the 'Acker Bilk' school, seems like an unnecessary dig to me. Plenty of players use a less focussed sound - Look at the (and I hate this label) 'old English' clarinet school. The music these people produced was inspirational.
Acker Bilk plays in HIS way. Why not try listening to the musical ideas he produces, rather than the sound he produces? I have no desire to sound like Acker Bilk - I want to sound like me - but I can appreciate the nice conversational style of playing the Acker uses in this video - I also think the sound blends with the style and other players rather well.
Post Edited (2010-05-16 13:21)
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Author: gigaday
Date: 2010-05-16 20:16
Iceland clarinet, you are perfectly entitled to like and dislike whatever you wish but ...
The thing that _I_ like so much about the clarinet is its versatility. The ability to produce smooth refined tones and the ability to produce raunchy fun sounds.
Maybe some people may not like the New Orleans jazz music or the sounds of the clarinet in these combos but millions of people did and still do. Why Acker Bilk gets singled out as the depths of depravity of clarinet tone is a mystery and very unfair - he is just one of many players that follow a style of playing that is over 100 years old and still alive. If you think his playing is rough try listening to some of the really old recordings of jazz clarinet but you probably won't find them on YouTube!!
To say that people shouldn't be allowed to play clarinet in a raucous way if they want to is like saying that Irish, Scottish and Bluegrass fiddle players shouldn't be allowed to play the violin. Or anyone who doesn't play guitar like John Williams, Paco de Lucia or Django Reinhart or whoever _you_ happen to like - should be held up to ridicule. Or that we must only sing operas. It's the Thought Police, I think.
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Author: Iceland clarinet
Date: 2010-05-16 21:19
gigaday I'm not saying that he isn't allowed to play like this. But like Tom Ridenour says in the video clip then unfocused sound played with big warm air instead of concentrated fast speed of cold air=Acker Bilk style of playing,is not something that I would teach specially to young students.
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Author: GLHopkins
Date: 2010-05-16 21:46
Iceland, while I would agree that I don't care for, or would ever teach, the tone some of these jazz clarinetists would use, I can say one thing for sure.
Acker Bilk is known by, and appreciated by, millions. I don't think the same can be said about you or me or any other legitimate clarinet player.
I'm not getting any royalty checks. Are you?
Post Edited (2010-05-16 21:50)
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Author: Iceland clarinet
Date: 2010-05-16 22:34
Richard Clayderman gets paid well but I think he is not a very good piano player. Same goes for Backstreet boys,Spice Girls and many other artists just to name few.
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Author: ned
Date: 2010-05-16 23:41
Yes Iceland clarinet, I have seen this video before, it came to the fore at the time of the previous Acker bash-fest thread.
''I find a clarinet that sounds like saxophone to be very unpleasant to my ears.''
You are entitled to your opinion, but this does not preclude it from being a legitimate tone.
''But like Tom Ridenour says in the video clip then unfocused sound played with big warm air instead of concentrated fast speed of cold air=Acker Bilk style of playing,is not something that I would teach specially to young students.''
This is musical mumbo jumbo to me.
''Richard Clayderman gets paid well but I think he is not a very good piano player.''
I'm unaware of and have no interest regarding his monetary rewards for performing but from the little I have heard of him, his technique is very good, perhaps on a par with the late Liberace. Both artists entertain/entertained their audiences, but not as much as your comments have entertained me in this thread.
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Author: Iceland clarinet
Date: 2010-05-16 23:47
ned said:
"I'm unaware of and have no interest regarding his monetary rewards for performing but from the little I have heard of him, his technique is very good, perhaps on a par with the late Liberace. Both artists entertain/entertained their audiences, but not as much as your comments have entertained me in this thread."
Lol
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Author: justme
Date: 2010-05-17 06:07
Stefan:-,
First of all, I hope that all is well with you, I hope and pray that you're safe over there with all that has been happening with the volcano.
Many years ago I felt the same way as you do about the saxophone.
Come to find out it really wasn't the "saxophone sound" that I disliked so much but the player, setup and/or style of music that was playing.
The saxophone is a more versatile instrument than many give it credit for.
I've heard some beautiful romantic songs played on the sop sax that I thought sounded wonderful and preferred the particular songs on the sax versus hearing them on the clarinet ( I can say the same in reverse of other songs that I would prefer on the clarinet).
I've also heard the same as far as classical on alto sax, etc. That on those particular songs I would prefer hearing them on the sax ( and again, others I like hearing better on the clarinet).
Not all sax players are using a wide open mouthpiece and playing the "new jazz," nor do they all sound the same.
Now, perhaps you've listened to different types of music with different players along with different mouthpiece/reed combos, I wouldn't know.
But until you do, with all due respect, please try listening to the different styles and sounds that can come from a saxophone before you say that you don't like the sound of "any" saxophone.
I know you like the classical style...
Here's
Yasuto Tanaka - Tenor Sax - The Swan -
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Lkcan0X5VA
And
TKWO Yasuto Tanaka playing Czardas on Baritone Sax -
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RVOBQBamjDA
If after listening to him play these songs, you may agree that sax can have a place in classical music as well,or at least appreciate the talent being put forth on playing the Czardas on the Baritone sax.
I mean no disrespect, take care.
Justme
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Author: gigaday
Date: 2010-05-17 07:56
Iceland clarinet wrote:
"gigaday I'm not saying that he isn't allowed to play like this. But like Tom Ridenour says in the video clip then unfocused sound played with big warm air instead of concentrated fast speed of cold air=Acker Bilk style of playing,is not something that I would teach specially to young students."
In the Ridenour video that you mentioned he refers to the "Acker Bilk School" of clarinet playing. I have looked at Acker's official web site
http://www.ackersmusicagency.co.uk/acker_dates.html
and there is no mention of any Clarinet School associated with him. There is however a photo of him with the Queen of England receiving his honour of Member of the British Empire for his "services to music".
Whether I would agree that he deserved an MBE is a moot point and I don't think that he is the greatest clarinetist of any style, but all this knocking of what he does is very rude and disrespectful to someone who worked hard to entertain others. I think Tom Ridenour should not be mentioning his name either - why can't he just refer to the New Orleans Style to make his point.
All this talk of "focused cold air and unfocused warm air" is total nonsense. I don't think that even Mr Ridenour can manipulate the laws of thermodynamics to control the temperature of the air leaving his warm lungs - pressure yes, temperature no. He actually produces the effect he wants to demonstrate by changing his embouchure - without which he could not change the pressure of the air.
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Author: Iceland clarinet
Date: 2010-05-17 13:21
Justme you are misunderstanding this big time. I like saxophone sound on saxophone but when a clarinet is played more like a saxophone than with characteristic clarinet sound then I just don't like it.
I also am often not a big fan of some saxophone trained players who double on clarinet.
Post Edited (2010-05-17 13:23)
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2010-05-17 16:27
<makes mental note that if you wanna create a controversial thread, just mention the names of Acker Bilk or Emma Johson> ![[tongue]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/smilie6.gif)
--
Ben
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Author: SteveG_CT
Date: 2010-05-17 16:34
tictactux wrote:
> <makes mental note that if you wanna create a controversial
> thread, just mention the names of Acker Bilk or Emma Johson>
>
>
You could probably add Reginald Kell to that list as well.
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Author: GLHopkins
Date: 2010-05-17 19:28
"So one day, Acker Bilk and Emma Johnson walk into this bar, and.........."
They are probably too busy going to gigs, and to the bank to deposit their earnings, to have time for keyboard clarinetting like we do. About all we can do is wish we were as successful as them. Isn't that right Iceland Clarinet?
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Author: Carol Dutcher
Date: 2010-05-18 02:04
Thank you for posting this, and also the You Tube connection. I really enjoy listening to Acker and think he did a great job on his silver clarinet. I am inspired to get my old silver clarinet re-done. I think his tone is great. As far as making a million or so on a "schmaltzy" tune, go for it Acker, and also I have heard far more schmaltzier million dollar tunes that just drive me completely up the wall. I always play Stranger on the Shore and Memories of You when our group plays for retirement homes, and everybody loves them both.
Thanks again - Carol
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Author: ned
Date: 2010-05-18 04:50
''.................he did a great job on his silver clarinet''
Carol, it looks silver but would be nickel plated brass more than likely. I had one just like it when I first played Boehm system - I still have it there (it's a Noblet, in one piece) lurking away in the studio.
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Author: donald
Date: 2010-05-18 07:16
I thought that this would be a thread about the Paul Anka cover of Stranger on the shore....
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2010-05-18 13:46
Or a story about how some composer was cheated (bilked) out of royalties for his song "Ankers Aweigh"......
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Author: ned
Date: 2010-05-19 09:26
Was this thread re-named from "Anker" to "Acker''?
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Author: Nessie1
Date: 2010-05-19 11:13
ned wrote:
> Was this thread re-named from "Anker" to "Acker''?
Well it would make sense as that is actually his name. Incidentally, did you know it is a nickname being a west country (Acker is from Somerset) term for a friend/mate/buddy?
Vanessa.
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Author: William
Date: 2010-05-19 13:46
Yes, I renamed the thread and have tried to correct my other spelling errors as well. "Anker" is now correctly, Acker. Probably due to this, I have not received confirmantion as his FB friend as of yet--still hoping to be #307 (lol).
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Author: Bassie
Date: 2010-05-20 15:10
Love it.
>> these jazz clarinetists mostly seem to hold the instrument much more horizontal than classical players
Louder that way :D
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Author: ned
Date: 2010-05-20 23:30
Bassie states: ''Louder that way :D''
Are you sure about this?
I have not noticed any change in volume particularly. I use vertical(ish) and horizontal(ish) depending on the state of my arm muscles at the time.
It's purely a convenience thing for me - sound has nothing to do with the situation.
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Author: Bassie
Date: 2010-05-21 16:30
>> Are you sure about this?
It sounds the same to the player. But the audience get a bit more edge. (Mahler actually writes it as an instruction sometimes.)
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Author: graham
Date: 2010-05-21 16:59
In Mahler it serves to show the audience which line to listen out for and makes it seem subjectively louder
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Author: MarlboroughMan
Date: 2010-05-21 17:31
There are different reasons, but sometimes it is a matter of bore size and shape. Many of the old jazz men played on German bore instruments, or instruments much closer to a German bore--and even classical players hold those out farther from the body.
Guys like Pete Fountain play on instruments with a much larger bore than most contemporary classical musicians, and the same went for Artie Shaw and Benny Goodman back in the day (though you'll notice that Benny pulled the instrument in closer once he began playing Buffets).
A jazz man like Eddie Daniels, who has played on contemporary Buffets and Leblancs, plays 'in' like a French/classical player. A German player like Wentzel Fuchs will hold his at an angle closer to Pete Fountains....
Eric
******************************
The Jazz Clarinet
http://thejazzclarinet.blogspot.com/
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Author: Bassie
Date: 2010-05-21 21:10
If you mike a clarinet on the bell you get quite a coarse tone. If you mike above the holes (i.e. facing the audience with bell down) you get a purer tone.
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The Clarinet Pages
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