 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: salzo
Date: 2010-02-16 17:47
Anyone know a good way to fix it when it gets out of wack? Its one of those adjustments I wish I can do, because I often encounter it out of wack on my students horns. It looks so simple. Every time I see one screwed up, I say, "I can fix this", and then I wind up screwing it up even more. I did get it right ONCE(and got it wrong about a thousand), but I dont know how I did it-it just kind of happened.
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2010-02-16 18:29
Depends on the issue. A common problem is a cork that comes undone and causes a misalignment at the crows foot. This is more of a "feel" problem though.
I have had issues with the Leblanc Concerto/Opus keys being a bit too malable causing this adjustment many problems.
In a case such as this you just have to know which way to bend your correction. If the RH "C" key is jammed down too much, just insert a shim (some inocuous wooden item such as a pencil) under the foot and gently press on the "C" key cup. Keep checking and redoing until it's back where it seals properly (LH "B" key brings both cups down together).
On other occasions I've had the LH "C#" bend so that it doesn't touch the foot at rest. Simple fix is to gentle press the RH key down along with the corresponding armature the the other side of the horn until it meets the foot at rest.
Those are the main ones. Others are possible and you just have to "play with it" in a similar manner. The important test is the LH "B" bringing both cups down to seal simultaneously.
..................Paul Aviles
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Author: salzo
Date: 2010-02-16 18:44
Thanks Paul, very helpful. I often wind up bending both sides out of alignment. I think I have been leaving the armature out of the correction process. Instead of a shim, would a pad slick work?
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Author: BartHx
Date: 2010-02-17 01:02
Using Paul's discussion as a guide, you can make it quite simple by spending about ten to fifteen dollars on a good pair of duck-bill pliers. They can grab the fork and easily put it exactly where you want it. Whatever you do, don't try to bend a key by holding the pad and pressing on the key. That can change the height of the pad as easily as it can change the height of the key. Notice, Paul said the "armature" and not the pad.
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Author: salzo
Date: 2010-02-17 01:59
Thanks Bart-
I have a few pairs of duckbill pliers- Ill give that a try also.
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2010-02-17 04:43
If you screwed up without pliers, you can screw up even more with pliers 
I assume the problem your students have is that it's not possible to play the B and E with just one hand, worse with just left hand key. The problem with adjusting the crow's foot is that there are several adjustments to consider i.e. you can fix the adjustment of the F/C and E/B keys but create double action in many places.
In your situation and considering you managed to screw up it up many times, I would say it's only critical to adjust so the student can play the E and B with one hand. In that case, there are only two things I recommend you do.
Press left hand E/B lever. If the F/C key closes but the E/B key doesn't, sand material (usually cork) from the crow's foot. If the E/B key closes and F/C doesn't (more common), add material to the crow's foot. You can glue tape or glue some paper (maybe with contact glue, carefully) if you want something thinner.
This might create some double action in one or both sides of the crow's foot, or the F/C lever to key linkage. A "real" adjustment would fix all of this. In reality adjustments are usually by (or include) bending and are more accurate than you can get from gluing material. But it's hard to recommend you do this if you say about yourself that you "wind up screwing it up even more" and "got it wrong about a thousand". The best way to get it right is not by following instructions (though this can help) but by analyzing the mechanism and realize what doesn't work the way it should. Then fix the problem and also anything that the first fix may have changed.
Post Edited (2010-02-17 04:49)
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2010-02-17 09:49
Clarnibass has it exactly.........analyze the problem before you do ANYTHING.
The pliers idea is rather extreme and may be the answer for clarinets that have taken a hard spill or had other extreme things happen to them. But think about it, the keys that go out of adjustment usually do so because of a cork that falls out, a cork that compresses, or a key that has been (to put it mildly) ham handed. Since a pair of pliers DID NOT get you into this fix in the first place, it shouldn't (normally) the answer to get you out of a jam.
And yes, and material that can be wedged without marring the wood or scratching the keys will work. I use a pencil that is rolling around in my case to fix the errant keys of my Concerto ALL the time.
...............Paul Aviles
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Author: Hank Lehrer
Date: 2010-02-17 10:04
There is another problem that can occur here and that is if you start bending keys and changing pad height, you could end up with another problem even after you get the two pads in sync. If the pads are too close to the tone hole, the sound can get stuffy. Too far and the intonation can become sharp.
I almost sold off my best clarinet, a Leblanc L200, some years ago when I could not figure our why the C was so stuffy. My tech made a couple of quick adjustments and the sound was astounding.
The logic of what has to be done with the crow's foot and the armatures is best left to the tech. There are a few places where the logic gets a little convoluted for an amateur to follow.
HRL
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Author: salzo
Date: 2010-02-17 10:54
"If you screwed up without pliers, you can screw up even more with pliers"
That is not only very funny, but certainly very accurate.
I have a roofing hammer and crow bar in the garage, maybe Ill give those tools a try.
You all are right, after reading the posts, I realize that the "analysis" element is missing.
I do a bit of general maintenance on my horns. One thing I have never done on my own horns is the crows foot. I see my repairman at least twice a year, so it has never been an issue on my own horns, so I have never had to sit down and figure out what was going on.
I do encounter it on students horns, and it is always during a lesson, and I always want to get it done fast so the lesson can continue. Next time I encounter one, Im going to sit back relax, and figure it out (heck Im getting paid for the time anyway). This isn't brain surgery, its a crows foot!
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Author: Lelia Loban ★2017
Date: 2010-02-17 12:42
I can't even remember the last time I had to resort to the pliers. Under the rubric of, "Fix the easy, cheap, reversible things first," I've found that the cork is usually the culprit, when a crow's foot seems out of alignment. The cork tends to wear down faster on one side and it can make the foot behave as if it's crooked when it really isn't.
Another frequent culprit is the fishskin stuffed into the holes to silence the left-hand side key levers, where they insert into their connecting rods. If that fishskin starts falling out (protrudes) or gets packed down into the hole, the lever can misalign and make the key sit wrong on the crow's foot, even though there's nothing wrong with the crow's foot.
Lelia
http://www.scoreexchange.com/profiles/Lelia_Loban
To hear the audio, click on the "Scorch Plug-In" box above the score.
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Author: LesterV
Date: 2010-02-17 14:33
A quick temporary fix is to put a layer or two of tape on one side or the other on the crow's foot cork.
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Author: Koo Young Chung
Date: 2010-02-17 19:41
When I adjust crow foot,I use a thin paper under the two holes and make a imprint, holding down the B key.
By the look of the impression,you know which close tighter if that's the problem.
This won't work if the pads aren't seated well.
But most of time it's the sync issue.
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2010-02-18 02:42
First, if there is a "timing" issue for pad closure for these keys, there is almost always an additional issue of the pads closing at the "back" (closest to the pivot) before the front closes.
Second, there are many adjustments here, all inter-related. And to attend to them all, with appropriate silencing materials in the linkages, may well involve bending in several places. Without fully understanding the inter-related adjustments, which incidentally vary according to the type of linkages lever-to-key, it is easy to do damage and make things a lot worse.
Third, there are many causes for the timing to be out for these key. As has been said, complete analytical understanding of the issues and their causes is vital before a proper cure is carried out.
So the better suggestions above should be treated as band-aids until a skilled technician can attend to it properly.
If the many causes of unreliability in this area are attended to, then these keys can actually operate very reliably unless the clarinet is unmendably crappy in some way, eg very soft key metal.
A complete guide to attending to this area of a clarinet adjustment would be several pages long, and probably understood by few.
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Author: davetrow
Date: 2010-02-18 04:59
I don't know if this has anything to do with your students' horns going out of adjustment, but although I've been playing the clarinet off and on since I was in junior high school (I''m almost 60), I just last week learned how to put a clarinet together properly from Daniel Deitch.
I had brought my R13 to him for, among other things, the E/B problem mentioned above (turned out to be mostly a compressed pad and a tone hole that needed a slight refacing). He showed me a way to avoid tweaking the lower-section keywork when assembling and disassembling the horn, which can often cause this problem.
I'm assuming this is old news to most of the people reading this thread, but thought I'd mention it as one way to avoid the problem in the first place, or at least avoid its repetition. I can describe what he showed me if anyone wants to know.
Dave Trowbridge
Boulder Creek, CA
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Author: bmcgar ★2017
Date: 2010-02-18 16:16
Simple, cheap, and safe:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qh6Pg__DRUE
(I'm always amazed at how few people mention Tom Ridenour's videos. Maybe because he manufactures rubber clarinets?)
B.
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Author: stevensfo
Date: 2010-02-18 20:07
-- "The logic of what has to be done with the crow's foot and the armatures is best left to the tech. There are a few places where the logic gets a little convoluted for an amateur to follow." --
For advice given to a beginner I agree with you completely.
However, one of the reasons I keep reading this forum is that these procedures are explained and discussed ad infinitum. Wherever the logic gets a little convoluted, there will always be someone to put it in simpler terms.
There are many forums where I would agree strongly with the advice "leave it to a tech".
But not this forum. I've learned so much here!
Including manipulation of the crows foot.
Steve
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Author: BartHx
Date: 2010-02-19 02:00
salzo: If your roofing hammer and crow bar are specifically designed to repair clarinets, go for it. I would never use a tool on my instrument that is not specifically designed for the job I am asking it to do.
It's about a ninety minute drive from where I am to the nearest city with any sort of music store, so I restore old clarinets for students in my area who otherwise would not be able to get involved in music. I get most of them for next to nothing off that auction site. However, those can often be quite a challenge. I got one that looked like someone had rolled the lower joint under their foot. Not a single key, ring, or pad worked properly when I got it. With the help of my duckbill pliers, a tool designed to remove the butt ends of needle springs that are broken off flush, a small rawhide mallet and anvil, swedging pliers, and a few other similar tools, I managed to make it into quite a nice starter horn.
My assumptions in suggesting duckbill pliers were:
1. That you have identified the crow foot adjustment as being the actual problem and
2. That you know how it needs to be adjusted
Analysis of the problem always has to be the starting point.
I guess I have just repaired too many beat up clarinets to still be thinking in terms of temporary repairs. Temporary repairs that could fail or that "look weird" are not going to encourage a beginner to put in the time they need to.
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2010-02-19 11:28
"My assumptions in suggesting duckbill pliers were:
1. That you have identified the crow foot adjustment as being the actual problem and...."
I find that crows feet almost never need adjustment. But a whole heap of other things things in the vicinity do.
To me, the APPEARANCE of the crowsfoot needing adjustment is but a symptom of these.
BTW you never see a crowsfoot that has been adjusted by a manufacturer by adding or removing cork (or whatever) silencing material from the crowsfoot.
I install silencing material in the various locations, using material and thickness to do the jobs well, then almost all adjustments are made by bending metal in the right places. (For the sensitive, that metal bending could be called "correcting the key geometry") And that seldom involves the crowsfoot itself, unless it is to align the crowsfoot so that the plane of it's cork is the same as that of the underside of the E/B touchpiece when that touch piece is pressed down. This condition is needed for good reliability, and manufacturers sometimes get it wrong.
As for this bending. I don't think explaining that in sufficient detail here for DIYers to do it safely, seems no more appropriate to me than explaining car chassis straightening in a forum for driving enthusiasts. It is complicated, not for the faint-hearted, and requires a range of suitable tools.
So that is why I see the offerings here as band-aids. I don't condemn them as such.
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2010-02-19 13:43
The Ridenour video is a good tool for understanding the problem and it presents a good solution.
As for bending keys, there is a place for moderate key bending in the relm of "SIMPLE ADJUSTMENTS WE ALL NEED TO DO OURSELVES." Examples are, the heights (or lack thereof) of rings, and the "one-and-one" Bb. These are items that we even change are mind about over time and need to adjust to our individual needs. I'm not talking about repairing a clarinet that just got slammed in a car door incident mind you, just day to day playing.
...............Paul Aviles
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Author: salzo
Date: 2010-02-19 17:18
"salzo: If your roofing hammer and crow bar are specifically designed to repair clarinets, go for it. I would never use a tool on my instrument that is not specifically designed for the job I am asking it to do."
Bart- I was just kidding about that-maybe I should have mentioned a jackhammer.
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