 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Clarimeister
Date: 2010-02-13 06:55
Hello all. I have been using the Clark Fobes CF+ model of mouthpiece for about 2 months now. I went through several and chose the one I have because of the fantastic sound it gave. However, the more and more I play it, the more I noticed it against my Grabner K11 that it is extremely brighter than the Grabner. I examined the piece again, cause of course i examine my mouthpieces for chips or any defects and rail alignments, I noticed that the tip rail is pretty thin compared to all my other mouthpieces. Do you think it needs to be refaced, or should I just sell it and try another one? Or, should I have it sent to Clark for that refacing or for checking out? Even when I was auditioning for Cal State Long Beach last weekend, Dr. Barcelona noticed I was pretty bright. I love the way this mouthpiece sounds and everything else about it, but I was wondering if anything can be done to make it, not so bright. Btw, I have used different reeds and strengths and that doesn't really do a whole lot. Any feedback or advice would be awesome. Thanks for your help everyone!
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Author: srattle
Date: 2010-02-13 10:24
I don't understand how you can love the way the mouthpiece sounds, but it's too bright. . .
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2010-02-13 12:50
In general, thinner rails and tip mean more high partials in the tone. It sounds bright up close but carries better into the hall. Gigliotti, for example, took this to an extreme to be heard over the rich Philadelphia strings in a dead hall.
A bright sound doesn't record well. Gigliotti, Alan Hacker and a number of other players sounded much better in person than on recordings.
Go into a big room and have a friend with good ears go to the back and listen to you playing the Fobes and the Grabner.
At least for me, it's possible to "voice-out" some brightness by varying the position of my lips, tongue and soft palate, but not possible to add it when a mouthpiece doesn't have it to begin with. Your results will almost certainly vary.
Try playing double lip, which eliminates the bone conduction input to your hearing and gives you a more accurate idea of at least your sound close-up..
If it drives you crazy, Clark can undoubtedly touch up the facing to decrease the buzz, but he obviously can't make the rails and tip thicker. The thin rails and tip are part of his style of mouthpiece making.
Ken Shaw
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Author: Ed
Date: 2010-02-13 15:13
Thicker rails also make a mouthpiece a bit less responsive. I don't know which cut of reeds you have played, but I would suggest trying the Rico Reserve Classic or V12.
Perhaps the best suggestion would be to contact Clark for his thoughts. Maybe one of his other models would be a better fit.
Post Edited (2010-02-13 20:12)
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Author: Ed Palanker
Date: 2010-02-13 17:26
I too don't understand how you can love the sound of a mouthpiece yet you think it's too bright. You either love the sound or it is indeed to bright. If you have it refaced it will no longer sound like what you love. There's a problem here with what you think you hear and what you actually sound like. You're confusing something in the way you're listening to yourself. If you love your sound then you must like a bright sound, but if you love your sound but someone else tells you it sounds bright, and that bothers you, than you don't have the proper concert of what you really want to sound like in your inner ear. You may also be confusing tone quality with your comfort level. ESP http://eddiesclarinet.com
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Author: Ryan25
Date: 2010-02-13 19:54
You are comparing apples and oranges with the Fobes and Grabner.
Fobes mouthpieces are designed to be very responsive, somewhat free blowing and the trade mark charracteristic of Clark's mouthpieces over the years has been the wonderful ring and projection in the sound that they help to produce.
Walters mouthpieces are very good but are in general much darker. If you want the Fobes to be dark like the Grabner then play the Grabner. I think the biggest mistake you could make is to start playing harder reeds to "darken" the fobes. That defeats the whole purpose of Clark's design. In my experience, this does not work anyways. You will end up producing a sound that is still on the "bright" side but will lose core and ressonance.
Decide which sound concept you want and stick to it. Both are good pieces so pick one. You can't turn one into the other.
Post Edited (2010-02-13 20:07)
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Author: Clarimeister
Date: 2010-02-13 23:57
Thank you very much for your input, and I'd probably assume you guys are correct. Maybe it isn't the sound i'm looking for. When I was younger, I've always had a bright sound and have always wanted to have a darker sound. Now I know embochure and other things have to do with a dark sound, but I think the mouthpiece could definitely make a difference. I thank you all for your input, and maybe Fobes isn't the way to go. I love my Grabner in the sound that it produces being very dark. However, the biggest thing I don't like is how much resistance it has.
On that note, today I tried out some of Mike Vaccaro's M&M mouthpieces. I think I found "the one." Has anyone had experience with any of these before? I found the middle ground with Fobes' free blowing"esque" resistance, but with Grabner's dark focused sound. Any info on that as well would be appreciated. Thanks guys for all your help!!
Post Edited (2010-02-14 00:01)
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Author: cxgreen48
Date: 2010-02-14 00:07
Have you tried using a bit softer reeds on your Grabner? Maybe that would reduce the resistance while still maintaining a darker sound.
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Author: Clarimeister
Date: 2010-02-14 00:10
To cxgreen48: I have indeed tried softer reeds on the Grabner. However, I still doesn't let me project as much as I'd like, while still maintaining the sound I want. It becomes to thinned out and buzzy, which is not what I want. But, thanks for the suggestion. 
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Author: Clark W Fobes
Date: 2010-02-22 20:08
On most of my mouthpiececes, except the EUROPA series I use a fairly thin tip rail to promote response. The color of the sound comes more from the tip baffle shape rather than the tip rail. However, wider tip and side rails can dampen upper overtones.
I am primarily an orchestral player performing regularly with the San Francisco Symphony and the SF Opera. The sound I like is greatly influenced by the players I hear around me and also by the type of sound one needs in order to project in a big hall like Davies Symphony Hall. Generally in San Francisco, players prefer a very "lively" and colorful sound. This carries well at both Davies Symphony Hall and The War Memorial Opera House. I have never been a fan of what some players think is a "dark" sound. Many of these type of mouthpieces sound dull and unintersting to my ear. IMO, the dull, colorless sound that some players perceive as "dark" limits the amazingly varied palette of sound that is available to the clarinet.
I have been faulted my some people as making mouthpieces that are too free blowing or "bright", but I can only follow my ear and my artistic sensibilities as a maker. The truly wonderful aspect of the state of mouthpiece making in the US today is that there are several very worthy craftsman who offer a wide variety of styles as opposed to Europe where most players only have Van Doren mouthpieces available to try.
I don't reface mouthpieces that have left my shop, but I can suggest using a thicker mouthpiece patch (like the BG or VanDoren black rubber patch) or by taking slightly more mouthpiece when you play.
Clark
Clark W Fobes - Clarinet & Saxophone Products
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Author: Iceland clarinet
Date: 2010-02-22 22:40
You might wanna try the K14 mouthpiece from Grabner. I find that it works well with V-12 #2.5(if you want a brassy jazz sound) and up to #3.5+. It projects very well has a pretty dark sound and is more responsive than other pieces from Grabner specially in the upper register. I find it to be too free blowing for me so I use it in jazz and sometimes with #3.5 V-12 reeds but now I mostly use his SW-1 personal mouthpiece with #3.5+ V-12 reeds and get more resistance that way but less projection which suits my playing style really well on my Buffet Festival.
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Author: NBeaty
Date: 2010-02-23 01:26
I have to agree with Clark in principle on his sound ideas. (see my recent post about 13 series vandorens for additoinal comments)
Many mouthpieces being produced right now do have very wide side and tip rails. They do produce a nice mellow and stable feel, but subtracts from response and ring in the sound. I think some makers simply don't bother adjusing the thickness from when it was just a blank. I have seen many failed attempts at thinning the rails (Having one rail twice the thickness of the other for instance). An adjustment that has to be done with care and well honed technique. Getting reeds to be balanced to a mouthpiece with uneven rails is near impossible.
It makes me wonder if the mouthpiece maker wants the rails to be thick, or simply doesn't want to take the time to do anything but lightly reface a zinner blank. Some makers charge 300+ for zinner mouthpieces and many are very inconsitant with this aspect of the mouthpiece.
Clark Fobes does a very nice job finishng these blanks, having made firm decisions on how each aspect of the mouthpiece should be- not just how the blank came.
Like Clark said, there are at least several other makers in the U.S. that do excellent work that have different concepts to suit pretty much any player.
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2010-02-23 11:24
Clark W Fobes wrote:
>
> Generally in San Francisco,
> players prefer a very "lively" and colorful sound. This carries
> well at both Davies Symphony Hall and The War Memorial Opera
> House.
Thanks, Clark, for adding a couple of different terms to the discussion. More than most sound descriptors "bright" and "dark" have taken on such a layer of judgment that for many they've become nearly synonymous with "good" and "bad."
Karl
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