 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: GBK
Date: 2010-02-06 16:57
I am finally getting a chance to perform Shostakovich Sym #5 (not sure how I missed it over all these years) and was wondering if the 3rd movement clarinet solo, 2 measures after 85 (for A clarinet) is more often played transposed on Bb clarinet to facilitate some of the slurs between registers.
...GBK
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2010-02-06 18:19
Just make sure you change back to A after the solo - there are low Es at rehearsal #91.
Karl
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Author: Gregory Smith ★2017
Date: 2010-02-07 03:39
Absolutely - Bb. And, as you say, it's less a matter of the simpler key signature than it is being able to play more legato - and perhaps more than just between registers.
Why play on the sides of the A clarinet in a legato solo using the lever keys when on Bb you'd have all of those open top holes to take advantage of finger legato (not to mention the gain in the instrument's stability).
A few months ago when I played it here, there was no question when it came time to play it in concert that it was the right choice.
Good luck Glenn.
Gregory Smith
http://www.gregory-smith.com
Post Edited (2010-02-07 03:51)
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Author: David Niethamer
Date: 2010-02-10 13:29
Sorry to be late to the party. I'm going to make trouble, too!! ;-)
The last time I played Shostakovich 5 was just before I retired from RSO, and at a point when there had been a long thread on KLARINET about playing the composer's choice of clarinet. I'll just briefly say that, while I understand Dan Leeson's very persuasive argument for honoring the composer's wishes, I'm not a zealot on the subject. In my experience/opinion, there are enough instances of composers exercising bad judgement about clarinet choice to make the case that sometimes they don't know best. Sometimes they don't care.
Two cases in point - Debussy, one of the great orchestrators, makes clarinet changes in "Afternoon of a Faun" that are impossible. To play all the notes in the part, you have to transpose some parts until a long enough rest occurs for you to change clarinets. Ginastera's "Variacionnes Concertantes" has a clarinet part in Bb. A colleague played this piece with Ginastera conducting, and reported that he told her "of course you play this part on A clarinet?" Obviously the choice of instrument was not crucial to Ginastera. I'm sure we could all name other such instances.
To return to Shostakovich 5 - American parts for the excerpt in question are written for clarinet in A. The "conventional wisdom" about this excerpt is that it would be easier to play on the Bb clarinet, which essentially places the solo into the key of written C for the Bb clarinet. But on my last performance, I tried the solo on A clarinet. I found a few surprising things.
1.) The sound character of the A clarinet is different from that of the Bb clarinet.
2.) The C# in the 4th measure (altissimo C#) is a more "stable" note than the "C" obtained if you play the solo on Bb clarinet.
3.) Especially if you're a professional player, legato playing in the key of C# isn't that much more difficult than it is in C major. (and the solo isn't **ALL** in C, anyway)
So - is it "easier"? To me, maybe, but not by that much. Dan Leeson made me think long and hard about all the instances of making something "easier" by playing it on another clarinet. To me it's not about "easier" - it's about producing the sound that the composer wanted, to the extent we can figure that out. And it's not about what even very fine performers "wanted" when they taught their students. In the end it's about what the **COMPOSER** wanted.
So, GBK - I encourage you to try the A clarinet version - even in a rehearsal, and see if easier is also better.
(donning fire-proof suit and ducking for cover!!)
David
niethamer@aol.com
http://members.aol.com/dbnclar1/index.html
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2010-02-10 15:43
David Niethamer wrote:
> Sorry to be late to the party. I'm going to make trouble, too!!
> ;-)
>
> The last time I played Shostakovich 5 was just before I retired
> from RSO, and at a point when there had been a long thread on
> KLARINET about playing the composer's choice of clarinet. I'll
> just briefly say that, while I understand Dan Leeson's very
> persuasive argument for honoring the composer's wishes, I'm not
> a zealot on the subject. In my experience/opinion, there are
> enough instances of composers exercising bad judgement about
> clarinet choice to make the case that sometimes they don't know
> best. Sometimes they don't care.
>
Well, we haven't wrangled about this over there in a long time - I guess the regulars are tired of rehashing old arguments. I mostly agree with your position in this (but see farther down), but...,
> Two cases in point - Debussy, one of the great orchestrators,
> makes clarinet changes in "Afternoon of a Faun" that are
> impossible. To play all the notes in the part, you have to
> transpose some parts until a long enough rest occurs for you to
> change clarinets.
Or the classic, Brahms 3rd, 1st movement, which I actually did once with two completely separate setups (also during the height of the discussion on Klarinet) so that I could put down one and grab the other, which is hectic but possible as long as you don't have to move the mouthpiece between instruments. Although it worked, I can't believe that players in Brahms's time really solved the problem that way. Keeping the A clarinet reed wet for the recapitulation of the solo isn't so easy, and there were no Legere's in the 19th century.
> ... But on my last
> performance, I tried the solo on A clarinet. I found a few
> surprising things.
>
>
> 2.) The C# in the 4th measure (altissimo C#) is a more "stable"
> note than the "C" obtained if you play the solo on Bb clarinet.
>
Maybe, although C on my B-flat isn't a problem note, an0d for me C down to F is an easier interval to manage smoothly than C# to F#. But then, on my clarinets, at any rate, the four altissimo Ds that follow on my B-flat clarinet are a little more stable than D# on my A. And, to make matters worse, C#4 and its 12th, G#5, both of which occur in the solo as written, may be the least stable and tunable notes on my whole A clarinet.
That isn't to say that all of this can't be managed - I've done this solo both ways, although not in orchestras at the level of RSO or any other full time orchestra - but in the end it seems playing it on B-flat has turned out for me to have more plusses than minuses.
> And it's not about what even very fine performers "wanted" when
> they taught their students. In the end it's about what the
> **COMPOSER** wanted.
>
This is where I've never been comfortable with the argument (made most forcefully by Dan on Klarinet) that the composer's choice of clarinet (or trumpet or French horn, which players of those instruments don't seem to have any qualms about totally ignoring) should always get first consideration, even if a player decides eventually to choose something else. If we are really to try to provide the sound the composer had in mind (assuming he heard anything more than a generic "clarinet" in his mind's ear) then we would, it seems to me, have to play on Wurlitzer German system clarinets for some pieces, Boosey & Hawkes 1010s for others, and who knows what they were using in Soviet orchestras in Shostakovich's lifetime. They all sound different and, to me, have sometimes nearly unmistakable dissimilarities that make any performance on a modern (or even mid-20th century) French-style Boehm instrument "wrong" if the criterion for sound is "what the **COMPOSER** wanted."
> So, GBK - I encourage you to try the A clarinet version - even
> in a rehearsal, and see if easier is also better.
>
> (donning fire-proof suit and ducking for cover!!)
>
I don't think you need much armor here - the fire and brimstone are over on the listserve. :-)
Karl
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2010-02-10 16:22
kdk,
Good argument about accoutics of different schools of clarinet playing. I'm surprised that I have NEVER heard anyone put this idea forward before.
And really, can ANYONE hear the difference between to "identical" clarinets pitched one half step off from one another? REALLY?
Speaking of the accoustical differences, with the Herbert Wurlitzers there was virtually no difference to sound OR resistance between the "A" and the "Bb." ..............take that Brahms !!!!
.............Paul Aviles
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Author: concertmaster3
Date: 2010-02-10 18:37
This doesn't exactly apply to Shosty 5, but in any case, many clarinet players will play C clarinet parts on either Bb or A, not because it's easier, but because they just can't justify buying one. If I can't justify playing something that will sound better on Bb than having the possibility of fumbling over it even just once on A, I'll play it on Bb (and I actually like my A clarinet better!).
I say play what makes you feel comfortable. I don't think most composers care which clarinet it is on if it's in range. He probably left it on A clarinet because of the low E later on. I've talked to composers and asked them if they mind if I transposed this from Bb to A clarinet because I was in the "key of Hell major", and of course, they didn't mind at all. Most of them just said I thought it would be easier to not have to worry about switching. As long as you play it with beautiful tone and accuracy, the audience won't care either.
I'm probably sounding like a broken record! I'm sure all of this has been said 100 times over. lol.
Ron Ford
Woodwind Specialist
Performer/Teacher/Arranger
http://www.RonFordMusic.com
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Author: Paul Miller
Date: 2010-02-10 20:28
Paul wrote: "And really, can ANYONE hear the difference between to "identical" clarinets pitched one half step off from one another? REALLY?"
No, they can't. There was a blind test done a few years back with some real heavies in the violin world.... They were listening to a del Gesu, a Strad, and some other great instruments, and really couldn't do any better than random where it came to identifying the instrument by sound alone.
http://musicale.com.au/blog/archives/9
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Author: Paul Miller
Date: 2010-02-10 21:40
Well, sure. I'm just thinking that given sufficiently high quality equipment, the differences in sound are probably close to negligible.
It would be a pretty interesting experiment to run. Buffet Bb and A, S&S Bb and A, Leblanc Bb and A clarinets... from behind a screen identify the instrument's key as well as manufacturer.
Post Edited (2010-02-10 21:40)
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