 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Rusty
Date: 2010-01-14 21:59
I am trying to understand that if a composer rights up or down a semitone is it just to get the music sounding that little bit sharper or flatter or is it because the piece of music sounds different (apart from pitch) if it is played with a heap of flats or sharps.
I presume it is for this reason because top composers (e.g. Liszt) rarely seem to compose in C. An example would be going from C to Db. Why would anyone want to compose in Db unless there are some other advantages of all the flats apart from the tiny pitch change?
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Author: salzo
Date: 2010-01-14 22:14
Because the key of C SOUNDS different than the key of D flat.
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2010-01-14 22:51
> Because the key of C SOUNDS different than the key of D flat.
That alone wouldn't mean much to someone who has no absolute pitch and when equal temperament is used. Everything sounds just so and so many percents sharper.
When you have absolute pitch, are a synesthesist, or use well temperament, then the different scales would indeed sound - a tad, or quite dramatically (depending on the listener) - differently.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equal_temperament (scroll down to "Comparison to just intonation" for a table)
--
Ben
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2010-01-14 23:12
From what I've heard (and can't remember who said it), Chopin and Liszt perferred playing in keys of F# and Db Major (to pick two remote key signatures as an example) because they were much easier to get around on a piano keyboard than playing in less remote keys as there were more black notes lying under the fingers (and raised well above all the naturals).
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
Independent Woodwind Repair Specialist
Oboes, Clarinets and Saxes
NOT A MEMBER OF N.A.M.I.R.
The opinions I express are my own.
Post Edited (2010-01-15 15:44)
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Author: Ed Palanker
Date: 2010-01-14 23:52
Some composers actually write what they hear in their heads and if it's the key of Db, or C# in their head then that's what they write it in. Don't forget, B major on the piano is C# major on a Bb clarinet and E major is F# major on a Bb clarinet.
Once a composer begins in an easier key they may hear a modulation into a much more difficult key because that's what they hear. Some keys have special meanings to some composers because it's in their inner ears. ESP http://eddiesclarinet.com
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Author: mrn
Date: 2010-01-14 23:52
tictactux wrote:
<<That alone wouldn't mean much to someone who has no absolute pitch and when equal temperament is used. Everything sounds just so and so many percents sharper.>>
That's not entirely true. The same melody often does take on different qualities when played in different keys, even if the listener can't name the key from listening.
I have even witnessed this phenomenon with non-musicians, as I can recall from at least one time when singing a song in front of a church congregation who had learned the song in a different key. Afterward, several people came up to tell me how much they liked my rendition and how different the song sounded that time than on previous occasions. The only thing I had done differently was to transpose the song back into the original key the songwriter had written the song in (as opposed to the key they had learned the song in, which had been chosen by one of the other musicians at the church because it suited her vocal range).
Stravinsky, who did not have absolute pitch, also remarked (in "Conversation with Stravinsky" by Igor Stravinsky and Robert Craft) that when musical ideas came to him, it was important for him to preserve them at the original pitch, because they had a tendency to lose their freshness and attractiveness when (unintentionally) transposed.
Post Edited (2010-01-14 23:53)
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Author: kdk
Date: 2010-01-15 00:24
Each of the answers that have been offered are true for some composers.
There's also the issue of range, which often determines the key of piece written for specific instruments. For example, a melody that a composer is absolutely committed to scoring for violin (or the first violin section of an orchestra) can't go below G3 (the pitch of the violin's lowest string). A melody written high in the cello's range might sound much more intense in one key than in another because of the effect of the extra range on the sound of the A string in a high position. Marches are usually written in band-friendly keys, but when they're transcribed for orchestra, arrangers often transpose them a half-step (usually down) to put the string parts in less awkward keys, especially for school string players who tend to be more comfortable technically in keys with sharps than in keys with flats (Stars and Stripes is easier starting in D major for non-professional string players than starting in E-flat, even though it changes the B-flat clarinets and trumpets from very friendly F major to E major).
Vocalists often move a piece up or down a half-step to suit their voices, and composers will often put a vocal piece in a key that is best suited to the range of the voice for whom the piece is written. Even so, some sopranos have their natural break between A and B-flat and some between B-flat and B, so they transpose up or down a half step to avoid the note immediately below their personal break.
Karl
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Author: Rusty
Date: 2010-01-15 07:43
Thank you all for your contributions but I don`t think they answer my question completely. To say C key sounds different to a Db or when someone sings in a different key at church and they notice and like the new renditioin of a piece it could simply be that it sounds better up or down a bit in pitch.
Also if Liszt`s and Chopin`s music is easier played with the multi flats or sharps then as a pianist (of limited talent) I`m amazed.
There is also the instrument`s range, which could be a factor, but to a solo pianist like Chopin this doesn`t seem relavent.
No, the good guys delight in their Db, E#,B# and so on. I`ve heard it said that to compose a quality piece in C major is degrading.
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2010-01-15 08:16
mrn wrote:
Quote:
I have even witnessed this phenomenon with non-musicians, as I can recall from at least one time when singing a song in front of a church congregation who had learned the song in a different key. Afterward, several people came up to tell me how much they liked my rendition and how different the song sounded that time than on previous occasions. The only thing I had done differently was to transpose the song back into the original key the songwriter had written the song in (as opposed to the key they had learned the song in, which had been chosen by one of the other musicians at the church because it suited her vocal range).
Don't underestimate the acoustics of the venue - same piece in different keys can sound completely different because of reverberations and resonances.
(Which may be a reason why a "jingle bell" ringtone just doesn't sound good when it goes off in the middle of the sermon ![[tongue]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/smilie6.gif) )
But I digress...
--
Ben
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Author: skygardener
Date: 2010-01-15 09:25
"I`ve heard it said that to compose a quality piece in C major is degrading."
Schoenberg (the inventor of the 12 tone row) said- "There is still much beautiful music to be composed in C major."
All the answers above are very true. Most composers chose a key for any of the reasons above for different compositions. Look at the Brahms Cello Sonata No.2. The intro theme goes down to the 5th below the tonic. The key is Fminor, so the 5th is the C, which is the lowest note of the Cello. It has a special sound because it is the only note that must be played open without any fingers touching/dampening the vibrations. Clearly Brahms thought about the instrument's sound (not only range) for this piece. For others, he might have thought about some other factor.
Also, there is the issue of key changes. If a composer knows that they want to change keys to a minor third above the first key, they might start at a place so that the second key is also easy to play.
"Also if Liszt`s and Chopin`s music is easier played with the multi flats or sharps then as a pianist (of limited talent) I`m amazed."
Physically, it is much easier. The black ones stick out and that makes the D, G, and A keys harder to play than the B, C, E, and F keys.
In my university class piano courses, the teacher started everyone off with B major scales because, for keyboards, that fits into the hands easiest- the thumb lands on B and E and the notes after are black keys. That's much easier on the hand than C major. Easy reading doesn't always translate to easy playing..
Also, if all the pieces were in the same key, there might not be a huge noticeable difference in how each separate piece sounds, but when you play a full concert, everything will be a bit repetitive. Many performers carefully choose the order of the pieces of a concert and CD based on the keys of the pieces. For example, if I had a piece in C maj, F maj, and G maj. I would probably order them as G, C, and F on the program, so that I have a kind of II-V-I progression over the whole concert and there is a feeling of closure at the end of the program.
Also, here is a complete set of all 32 Beethoven Piano sonatas in one box set. They don't put them in order at all. CD1 Track 1 is Sonata 7. http://www.membran.net/files/11549_220865_lc.htm
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Author: mrn
Date: 2010-01-15 17:04
skygardener wrote:
> Clearly Brahms thought about the instrument's sound (not only
> range) for this piece.
In his younger days, Brahms played the cello (and pretty well, according to some accounts I've read)--that is, until the cello teacher walked off with Brahms' cello, never to be seen again. So that's even more reason to assume Brahms was thinking about the particular sound of that open string.
> "Also if Liszt`s and Chopin`s music is easier played with the
> multi flats or sharps then as a pianist (of limited talent) I`m
> amazed."
> Physically, it is much easier. The black ones stick out and
> that makes the D, G, and A keys harder to play than the B, C,
> E, and F keys.
> In my university class piano courses, the teacher started
> everyone off with B major scales because, for keyboards, that
> fits into the hands easiest- the thumb lands on B and E and the
> notes after are black keys.
Starting beginning students in key signatures requiring the use of many black keys was a pedagogical idea Chopin used himself. I cannot recall whether Chopin actually originated this practice himself or adopted it from somebody else (I want to say that it was an original idea of Chopin's, but I am not certain). In any case, I have seen it reported in multiple places that that was how Chopin taught, and that he considered the C Major scale to be the hardest of all on piano.
I know from firsthand experience, though, that you see this sort of thing with string pedagogy, too. When you start learning violin, for instance, you learn to position the fingers of your left hand in a particular configuration to allow you to play a major scale starting with an open string (the middle and ring fingers are placed close together because of the half-step between the mediant and subdominant of the scale, while the other fingers are spread apart to mark off whole-steps--similar to the University of Texas "Hook 'em horns" hand sign)
Since most beginning violin students start off with the A and E strings, that means the most common key signature for beginning students is A Major (three sharps), most definitely not the key signature of choice for beginning woodwind players. I have yet to see my daughter (who takes violin) play anything with fewer than two sharps, though. (Because everything she plays is in "first position," as I described above) Not that she hasn't hit a few C naturals as a beginner, but they've all been mistakes. "Hear how that sounded sad?," her teacher would say when she'd occasionally slip into A minor, "It's not supposed to sound sad, is it?"
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2010-01-15 17:42
I "think" we've touched on this a bit above, but it should be emphasized that those with real pitch memory hear the different keys as distinctly different colors. Beethoven referred to "Eb" as a "dark" key while "D" was "Bright."
So different keys represent different moods to those who actually hear this difference and perhaps even with respect to the church congregation above.
Also, just imagine if EVERY "song" were written in exactly the same key, how pedantic things would sound after awhile.............try listening to country music for any length of time as an example :-)
NEVER underestimate what is heard by "non-musicians!!!"
.......................Paul Aviles
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2010-01-15 18:50
"Stravinsky, who did not have absolute pitch, also remarked (in "Conversation with Stravinsky" by Igor Stravinsky and Robert Craft) that when musical ideas came to him, it was important for him to preserve them at the original pitch, because they had a tendency to lose their freshness and attractiveness when (unintentionally) transposed."
And unfortunately with that one of his most stunning tunes in 'The Firebird' (Princess's Round Dance?) is in B major which is a right pig on oboe.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
Independent Woodwind Repair Specialist
Oboes, Clarinets and Saxes
NOT A MEMBER OF N.A.M.I.R.
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Rusty
Date: 2010-01-15 20:25
I notice also when certain clarinet notes are played (at least by me) they have a distinctly different colour not attributed to frequency change. It is the nature of the instrument, so I guess clarinet composers being aware of this compose accordingly.
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Author: rgames
Date: 2010-01-16 06:57
Choice of key is based on a lot of factors. I think most composers start out following what they hear in their head but it doesn't always end up that way. More often than not you have to temper that sound against the realities of instrumentation. Of course, that's not a concern if you're writing a work for solo piano, then you can just follow your thoughts.
If I start a piece in one key then decide I need to do it in another, it feels uncomfortable and it takes a week or so to get my brain around the new key. But after that, it feels as comfortable as it did before the change.
If there are universal "key moods" then we must accept the fact that those moods are changing with time because reference pitch has changed a lot since we started worrying about it (generally gone up, I believe). So if Beethoven thought D was a "bright" key, we should play his D works in
C# because that's closer to the actual pitch he heard.
I do think, though, that composers tend to hear certain moods in certain keys for some unknown reason. For example, more often than not, I hear dark moods in C minor. No idea why - it just comes out that way. I've heard plenty of dark pieces in other keys, though, so it's not related to the key.
rgames
____________________________
Richard G. Ames
Composer - Arranger - Producer
www.rgamesmusic.com
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Author: Bennett ★2017
Date: 2010-01-16 17:36
Perhaps choice of key is sometimes determined, as well, by the influence (conscious or unconscious) of music written before well-tempered became universal and/or the vagaries of instruments that couldn't play chromatically.
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Author: Lee
Date: 2010-01-17 00:26
We played a piece one time which was in E for about half then changed to F# for the rest. I called the arranger (a clarinetist) and ask why. He said for church music they often have to set the key so the guitars have an easer key. The key isn't always set for musical reasons.
Post Edited (2010-01-17 00:27)
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